Episode #165: “I make 10x my husband’s income. Will we ever feel like equals?”

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[00:00:05] Geena: I’m kind of the mom. It’s something I create and do. I have this tendency to not want him to take on any additional expenses. If I can see he needs sneakers or he needs something, I help him pay his studio rent, when I help him with his fixed costs. He’s not in his 20s, and I want us to be more equals in this way.

[00:00:29] James: It’s understandable that Geena would want to feel like she was looked after, more so than the other way around.

[00:00:39] Geena: I think I have a bit of a martyr complex. I could end up feeling resentful.

[00:00:44] James: It has already turned sometimes into little bits of resentment. And because I’m not able to contribute in the same way or in similar ways, therefore I just feel like I’m not enough. Doesn’t feel great. I don’t know. Sorry. My head is full of stuff. It tells me that I don’t think enough of myself. I don’t think big enough.

[00:01:07] Ramit: Correct

[Narration]

[00:01:08] What would you do if you made 10 times what your partner makes? I’m serious. Think about it. If you made 10 times more than they made, what would you pay for? How would it change the dynamic of your relationship? Today we’re going to explore that.

[00:01:23] Geena is 44. James is 39. They rent in Brooklyn. They’ve been married for nine years, no children, and they keep their money separate. Now, she makes more, but that’s not her primary concern. She just wants James to be more engaged with money.

[00:01:38] One more thing. Sometimes I get comments about how I only feature people making a lot of money. I got to tell you, I’m very proud of how diverse our guests are, from their socioeconomic status to their geography, occupations, sexuality, and incomes.

[00:01:53] As you listen today, you’ll notice that Geena and James make a lot. My suggestion for you is to use my D to C principle. Instead of disparagement, try curiosity. What would I do if I made that much? What if we had a 10X differential in income?

[00:02:10] Most of all, remember that when I speak to couples with a lot of money, this is a crystal ball into your future. If wealthy people worry about money, you will too unless you make a change.

[Interview]

[00:02:23] James: I was actually away on a work trip, and I had a feeling that Geena was going to plan something big for a big birthday I have next year. We’re having a blowout year of travel this year, and it’s great, and I’m excited. But for next year, we had talked about maybe reining a few things in, and I noticed on my American Airlines app that some flights had popped up.

[00:02:48] I know. And I’m not supposed to know that, but these flights have popped up and I can see that Geena’s planning something big and crazy, and I love her for it, but I want to be involved in conversations surrounding spending a lot of money on a holiday, even if I’m not the one spending the money, obviously.

[00:03:09] Ramit: Have you talked about this before?

[00:03:11] James: No.

[00:03:12] Ramit: It’s just coming up right now. Okay.

[00:03:14] Geena: I didn’t know he’d seen the flight.

[00:03:17] Ramit: Do you want to keep the location a secret?

[00:03:21] James: I’ve seen where the flights are going to.

[00:03:23] Geena: Yeah.

[00:03:23] Ramit: Well, where are they going? Now I got to know.

[00:03:26] Geena: Trieste. And then I haven’t booked internal flights to Sicily and to an island off the coast of Sicily called Pantelleria.

[00:03:34] Ramit: Wow. I haven’t even heard of that. That’s cool. Okay.

[00:03:39] Geena: And I’ve said this to James before, sometimes I feel like I’m mom. I’m planning things. I’m taking care of all the things, and it’s something I create and do. There are times when I help him pay his studio rent, when I help him with his fixed costs. He’s not in his 20s, and I want us to be more equals in this way.

[00:04:06] I feel like there’s such a discrepancy between– I recently helped him pay off a credit card because it had been for a long time, but I just want to feel like we’re in it together and saving and investing together, but I’m aware some of it as a dynamic that I maybe create by being so–

[00:04:27] Ramit: But you are taking care of the money in the relationship, right?

[00:04:31] Geena: Yes. Well, the bigger picture sense. We do split things proportionally. We do split our fixed costs, and I don’t take care of everything, not at all, but if there were a emergency or something like that, I would be the one that would say, it’s okay. I’ve got it. We have this. We can figure this out.

[00:04:50] Ramit: Just to put a sense of scale, you make about 10 times what James makes, right?

[00:04:53] Geena: Mm-hmm.

[00:04:54] Ramit: Okay. If we’re just speaking functionally, for the majority of the expenses, even though it’s proportional, which I appreciate, you’re taking care of the savings, the investing, the majority of the expenses. Would that be fair?

[00:05:06] Geena: Mm-hmm.

[00:05:07] Ramit: Does that make you feel like mom? Is it the fact that you are paying more, or is it the fact that you are the one thinking about it, doing the work to plan certain things and what account it comes from? What is it that makes you feel like “mom”?

[00:05:28] Geena: It’s the second one. I think that James intends to be involved, and he doesn’t want to sit back and not be involved. But it works out this way, combination of factors, our incomes, and also maybe my personality.

[00:05:45] James: From my perspective, Geena likes to take things on, and she likes to take things on in a way that often I feel a bit left behind, I would say.

[00:06:01] Geena: And I think also, I have this tendency to not want him to take on any additional expenses. If I can see he needs sneakers or he needs something, I want to be the one to cover those things because it is so much less impactful for me financially.

[00:06:19] Ramit: But does it create stress with you, Geena?

[00:06:24] Geena: No. I think it’s just the cumulative thing that I constantly feel like I’m keeping an eye literally on like, I know he needs new running sneakers. I know we need these groceries. I know we need this.

[00:06:39] Ramit: Like a mom having to make sure everything is running correctly.

[00:06:44] Geena: Yeah. And it’s not because James puts it on me, but it just feels like it’s something I should take on because of our financial situation. And yeah, I don’t want to not be with James. I would want to be with him and have this situation, but I feel like I’m in it by myself.

[00:07:06] Ramit: And how many other examples could we come up with in the next 10 seconds? Go ahead.

[00:07:12] Geena: Groceries is a big one. I love going to the grocery store.

[00:07:15] Ramit: Okay, what else? Groceries. What else? 10 seconds. Give me the lightning round.

[00:07:20] Geena: Anything like shoes, sneakers, clothes, things on Amazon, just things we need. I’m always like–

[00:07:26] Ramit: Who buys the paper towels?

[00:07:27] Geena: I tend to.

[00:07:29] Ramit: Uh-huh. What else? Who pays the irregular expenses, the property tax, the thing that happens every quarter, every six months, who pays that?

[00:07:39] Geena: I do the renters insurance.

[00:07:40] Ramit: Okay, great. What else?

[00:07:42] Geena: Just the everyday bits and pieces. We run out of laundry detergent. For some reason, I tend to notice that and get it. And also I like to be the one to pay for it.

[00:07:51] Ramit: Hold on. For some reason? What is the reason?

[00:07:56] Geena: I’m not sure. We’re out of certain things, and I think maybe James had used them more recently than I had. I don’t know. He just didn’t notice that they were empty or I’m not sure.

[00:08:06] Ramit: Hmm. So interesting.

[00:08:09] Geena: I texted him. I was like, did you notice we’re out of whatever. It’s fine.

[00:08:14] James: You were pretty mad.

[00:08:17] Geena: I was like, I think you used it last.

[00:08:18] Ramit: What was it?

[00:08:19] Geena: It was just some of the spray stuff or the toilet stuff or whatever.

[00:08:24] Ramit: James, have you ever ordered cleaning supplies?

[00:08:29] James: I have. Yeah.

[00:08:36] Ramit: When? Anyone think there’s any clues going on right now? No? Am I the only one noticing them?

[00:08:46] Geena: Yes.

[00:08:47] Ramit: I want to understand your account structure. Do you have a joint credit card?

[00:08:51] Geena: No, everything is separate.

[00:08:53] Ramit: Uh-huh. Why no joint credit card?

[00:08:55] Geena: I know you’re big on merging accounts and whatnot. We just never have. And I think because there’s such a discrepancy and all of the 401k and all this stuff was mine coming into it. And James had his credit card debt that he had been working on until recently. I have my own. I like to zero them out every month.

[00:09:16] Ramit: Okay. And then guilt-free spending, the travel stuff, where does that come from?

[00:09:21] Geena: Me.

[00:09:22] Ramit: You. Okay. All right. I’m going to do something unusual. Can we just jump right into your CSP?

[00:09:23] Geena: Sure.

[Narration]

[00:09:28] Ramit: Some quick background, Geena recently paid off $10,000 of James’s credit card debt. She said that hopefully paying off this debt would unlock his ability to save more. Let’s take a look at the numbers.

[Interview]

[00:09:42] James, under the net worth section, why don’t you read the word in bold and then the full number next to it?

[00:09:48] James: Assets, 75,000; investments, $470,857; savings 166,739; debt, 9,000.

[00:10:06] Ramit: Total net worth?

[00:10:08] James: Total net worth 703,596.

[00:10:14] Ramit: All right. What do you think about that?

[00:10:18] James: It’s good.

[00:10:19] Ramit: Okay, good. What about you, Geena?

[00:10:23] Geena: I’m 44 years old, and I feel like it should be a lot bigger.

[00:10:26] Ramit: All right. Let’s look at the income. Shall we?

[00:10:28] Geena: Mm-hmm.

[00:10:30] Ramit: This time, let’s go, Geena. Geena, what is your combined gross monthly income?

[00:10:35] Geena: 51,282.

[00:10:38] Ramit: All right. And will you just break it down for me? Your income per month?

[00:10:43] Geena: 46,282.

[00:10:44] Ramit: Uh-huh. And James’s?

[00:10:46] Geena: 5,000.

[00:10:47] Ramit: Yeah. You’re an attorney?

[00:10:49] Geena: Yes.

[00:10:50] Ramit: All right. Awesome. First of all, fantastic. 46 grand a month? I’ll give you a round of applause for that. That’s amazing. Well done.

[Narration]

[00:10:59] Ramit: We’ll be right back after this short break.

[00:11:02] Now back to the show.

[Interview]

[00:11:04] Ramit: Combined annual income is $615,384.

[00:11:09] Geena: Mm-hmm.

[00:11:10] Ramit: Did you both know that?

[00:11:12] Geena: I think he has a sense. Yeah.

[00:11:15] Ramit: That’s a no. It was something with six digits in it. Like that?

[00:11:24] Geena: No. I think because of the RSU numbers, it gets a bit confusing in my head, but I know it’s around 600

[00:11:32] Ramit: Okay, all right. Around 600 is like, yes, that’s totally in the neighborhood. And James, did you know what your combined annual income was?

[00:11:41] James: Not exactly. No. I feel like when we do taxes and we look at the gross and then we look at how the numbers boil down, it’s always just a bit of a whirlwind, and it ends up being what it is, which, yeah. And for me, a lot of the time I have a sense that I’m a bit of a tax asset because I’m earning less.

[00:12:02] My work in the music industry has sometimes been based in a fixed position, at a recording studio or a touring operation that has taken me away and been a form of a regular paycheck. And it’s also been project based like it is now, where it’s up and down, and it is hard to predict. And it’s another reminder about how I’m, on average, not bringing in what I feel like is enough, and therefore not able to contribute.

[00:12:38] Ramit: Uh-huh. Keep going. Finish the sentence. And because I’m not able to contribute, therefore?

[00:12:43] James: And because I’m not able to come contribute in the same way or in similar ways, therefore I just feel like I’m not enough. Doesn’t feel great. The moments when I panic and the moments where I feel as a freelancer next to this person who is smashing the corporate ladder in my opinion and has done ever since we met, there are many situations where I’m upset that I can’t contribute more.

[00:13:15] Geena: He hasn’t been saving. He’s been meeting his fixed costs or not trying to incur further debt, but just really treading water.

[00:13:25] Ramit: But what’s the problem though? Life goes on. Seems like you have a nice place. You’re taking amazing trips. What’s the problem here?

[00:13:32] James: Everything seems to tick along nicely, but I think there’s potentially a situation where Geena is striving and doing really well with managing our savings and investments, and I’m often putting myself under pressure, I think, to get toward splitting things.

[00:13:53] And sometimes I worry that living in this situation and living with the nice things that we do have, because I’m trying to always keep up and trying to be as much of a match as I can, I worry that I’m not allowing myself to do things like save and to do things that are more.

[00:14:13] Interview: Not allowing yourself to save or not saving?

[00:14:16] James: Just not saving.

[00:14:17] Ramit: Hmm. Let’s look at your fixed costs. Fixed costs are 24%. I’m seriously not going to sit here and critique your fixed costs at 24%. That’s amazing. Your rent is 3,500 bucks. Quite modest for somebody making 615,000. You could be spending a lot more on that. I appreciate that you have a modest price place. Car payment, what is this? Your train tickets?

[00:14:46] Geena: Yeah, MetroCard.

[00:14:47] Ramit: Subway? I love it. Groceries and supplements combined, $1,080. I fucking love this. Do you eat at work, though, for free, Geena?

[00:14:55] Geena: No, I don’t. I work at probably the only huge tech company that does not give free–

[00:15:02] Ramit: Pathetic. All right, fine. Hair? Oh, your subscriptions are 1,734. Let me guess, gym? What is this?

[00:15:09] Geena: Yes, gym. I go to a Pilates one on one, and I have a trainer. And then we also added in Soho House and those credit card annual fees.

[00:15:20] Ramit: This is a very New York couple right here. Soho House. I got the Pilates. I’m like, I recognize this. Okay, got it.

[00:15:27] Geena: But we use them all. I go to Equinox twice a day every. So all of that stuff.

[00:15:32] Ramit: Good. You go twice a day?

[00:15:33] Geena: No, sometimes I’ll go to a class and then go, but yeah, use–

[00:15:37] Ramit: Hold on. Tell the world. Tell the world what you do twice a day at the gym. Tell them. They need to know. Some people think if they go twice a month, they’re like, I did it. No, tell them what you do twice a day. Tell them.

[00:15:48] Geena: Equinox is the worst nightmare. I go way too much. Maybe I’ll go do my trainer session and then I’ll go to a yoga class later on in the day or something like that.

[00:15:56] Ramit: Amazing. All right. And then you have a dog. Whatever. This is great. 24%, I have no comments. It’s great.

[00:16:06] Geena: I always think about doing something on the side. I hate to just rely on my job. What if something happens? I’d like to have some consulting or something, whatever I could do. I don’t know what that would look like. But that’s something I also think about.

[00:16:20] Ramit: Can I just point the reason I’m laughing is I love being able to show my audience what a true top performer looks like? So somebody making $50,000 a month who’s like, yeah, I go to the gym twice a day. I’m an attorney. I think I should do something on the side. I can just do something. And by the way, I travel for three weeks at a time. What? Everybody, listen. People like this exist. This is real. I appreciate it because the numbers make no sense to the average person. Are you motivated by money?

[00:16:58] Geena: I’m motivated by wanting to be able to enjoy life in the world and experiences. And I’m motivated by not wanting to be backed into decisions because I don’t have money, forced into a decision I don’t want to make because of money.

[00:17:13] Ramit: Yeah, you remind me of me a lot. I feel the same way. I never want to have to make a bad decision because of money. I do like nice things. That too. The money per se, I don’t sit there and look at spreadsheets and stuff and feel great, but I do feel great when I can get the exact travel thing that I want. I love that. And take friends, family. I love that.

[00:17:38] Geena: I love to be generous. Yeah. I love to feel like, oh, I’ve got this. Let me treat– yeah.

[00:17:44] Ramit: Right. Your investments, let’s just say for conservative numbers, you’re doing 7,500 per month. Fair?

[00:17:54] Geena: Yeah.

[00:17:54] Ramit: Investing. We’re ballparking it here. All right, so you’re investing 90,000 a year.

[00:18:00] Geena: The last couple of months, I have not been hitting those numbers, the last two months, I would say because as I mentioned, I do not like to carry anything on my credit cards.

[00:18:11] Ramit: At 615,000, why is it a decision between investing and credit card? Oh, that brings me to the last category. Let’s just look at that, shall we? All right. I have few questions about this. First of all, no savings, although you do have 166,000 in savings. Fine. It’s fine.

[00:18:28] Geena: Yeah, we didn’t pull that in.

[00:18:29] Ramit: Let’s just talk about this number at the end, which really captivated me. This is what we call our guilt-free spending number. Typically, it’s between 20 to 35%. However, here, what’s this number, Geena? Read that to me.

[00:18:41] Geena: 59%. 19,430.

[00:18:46] Ramit: Per month. Is this true?

[00:18:49] Geena: I didn’t sit down and crunch the numbers, but the fixed costs and everything else is true. So that would be what is left. There’s a lot of expensive airplane tickets and hotels and things like that.

[00:19:01] Ramit: I got to hear it. First of all, no judgment. What are we talking about?

[Narration]

[00:19:06] Ramit: God, I love this. That is what a wealthy couple spending looks like. When was the last time you got to peer inside the conscious spending plan of a couple who makes $50,000 a month, spending $19,000 a month on travel? Never. That’s why I find this fascinating. Don’t you? Here’s what I notice. I want to see if you notice it too.

[00:19:28] Do you notice how at your income goes up, your fixed cost percentage goes down? Often way down, because your income often grows faster than your fixed costs. This is because we all pretty much buy the same bread and the same toilet paper. Yeah, you can splurge on some fancy stuff, but in the grand scheme, that doesn’t really move the needle.

[00:19:48] But a very high income is super linear compared to the expenses in your fixed costs. Do you also notice how if you make a high income, you can invest huge amounts of money every month, and how you’ll often find really high numbers for guilt-free spending due to the savings in those fixed costs?

[00:20:09] These numbers are actually typical of a lot of people I know with high incomes, and I’m sharing this to demystify how serious wealth is created. It’s often with a high income. And this is good to know because if your goal is to have a lot of money, it’s not magic. It’s not a lottery ticket. It’s not an insurance settlement.

[00:20:29] It probably starts with a high income. Finding a high income is a skill you can learn. In fact, this week I’m opening up my Earnable live program where I show you how to dramatically increase your income by starting a business, including a special live component, so you can get coaching directly from me.

[00:20:48] You don’t even need a business idea to start because we’ll show you how to find a profitable one. You’ll get access to our private community, our Earnable program, and you’ll also get live coaching calls with me at iwt.com/earnable. Now I want to know about their 19,000-dollar a month trips.

[Interview]

[00:21:08] Ramit: What are we talking about? Walk me through a recent trip you took. What level are we talking about here? What hotels? Let’s start there.

[00:21:14] Geena: I took a trip to Morocco last November.

[00:21:17] Ramit: Tell me.

[00:21:18] Geena: And I stayed at La Mamounia for a couple of nights.

[00:21:20] Ramit: Whoa. Top three. Okay, very good. What else did you do?

[00:21:26] Geena: I did a small group tour, which was interesting, but I flew business class, etc. Let’s see. What else? We did a big trip in over the holidays to Finland. We stayed up in the Arctic Circle at this place called the Arctic tree house lodge, which is very expensive over Santa season. We stayed at the upper house in Hong Kong, which was nice. That was a surprise for James’s birthday a few years ago.

[00:21:56] Ramit: So how’s the math work out? Because I know how much all these places you’re talking about cost. And I’m confused. If you have five trips per year, well, let’s just make the math easy. $20,000 a month, that’s $240,000 per year, divided by five trips. Okay, $48,000 per trip. That actually seems quite reasonable, right?

[00:22:21] Geena: I think that seems right on average. Because sometimes we’ll go away for three weeks, and the total amount for that is probably close to 40 some thousand dollars.

[00:22:32] Ramit: Yeah. Well, just a guideline is like, as you know, for luxury trips, you can assume, these days, $2,000 per person per night. So that’s $4,000 a night. If you’re going for a month, that’s $120,000 right there. Wouldn’t surprise me.

[00:22:53] Listen, first off, my CSP looks like this. What? Am I going to sit here and tell somebody making $615,000 a year, like, don’t stay at this hotel? No, but I do think there are a few things to go over financially speaking, and then I think more importantly, it’s how the two of you become a team.

[00:23:18] Geena: Yeah.

[00:23:19] Ramit: Right?

[00:23:19] Geena: Mm-hmm.

[00:23:22] Ramit: Well, where do you want to start? You want to talk about the numbers, or you want to talk about the teamwork?

[00:23:27] James: Let’s do the numbers.

[00:23:28] Geena: Teamwork. Okay.

[Narration]

[00:23:32] Ramit: We’ll be right back after this short break.

[00:23:34] Now back to Geena and James. 

[Interview]

[00:23:37] Ramit: Let’s just say for easy math, 40 and 44, with a very high combined income, that’s really good to know. You do invest $90,000 a year, which is really good. Let’s just run some math. So you’re investing about 14% of gross.

[00:24:02] I know people who make $150,000 who are investing more proportionally than you are. At $615,000, you’re buying the same bread as everybody else, so your expenses are low, your income is super linear, it’s high. Therefore, you should be able to afford to invest more. And we can see where the problem is, is that 40 and 44, you have $470,000 invested. Now, I understand you probably haven’t been making this kind of income for a long time, etc. When did start making this income?

[00:24:36] Geena: There were a few years, 2016 to 2019, and then this from 2022. And then there was a gap in between when it was about half where it is now.

[00:24:47] Ramit: Well, that’s a long time. All right. So you probably should have more. Let me tell you why. Because you like to live the good life. If you want to continue living the good life, you need to be putting a lot of money away.

[00:24:58] Geena: Mm-hmm.

[00:24:59] Ramit: The bad news is that you haven’t been putting away as much as you could. The good news, this is going to be surprising for people who listened, is a very high income solves a lot of financial problems, a lot. You can be sloppy if you have a really high income. So if I were to tell you, find 50 grand more to invest per year, wouldn’t be that hard, would it?

[00:25:31] Geena: No.

[Narration]

[00:25:32] Ramit: What I just said is heresy to many people in the personal finance community. But those same people have often never earned a really high income. The fact is a high income solves a lot of financial problems. If you haven’t been investing since you were 25, a high income can help you add tons of money to your investments in just two to three years.

[00:25:53] A high income can buy back your time and on and on. I had a friend, for example, who didn’t start seriously investing until he was 50, and he was very worried. I looked at his number forum. I showed him that if he truly prioritized investing 30% of income for the next five years, he would be more than fine.

[00:26:12] That’s only possible with a high income. Now, if you’re listening to this, you’re rolling your eyes, you’re saying, duh, Ramit. Oh wow. A high income solves a lot of problems. Get curious. Ask what if.  Hey, what if I increased my income? What would I be able to do? Let me plug in the numbers to the CSP, which you can get at iwt.com/csp.

[00:26:34] And then if you decide you want to increase your income, learn the skill. It’s a skill. It’s not just luck. Income doesn’t just fall out of the sky. It’s something you can get if you prioritize it, whether with my Earnable program or on your own. Now of course, just as with any income level, you need to know what your Rich Life is.

[00:26:55] You need to be investing. You need to keep an eye on your expenses. Especially because people who like to spend a lot of money today want to keep spending a lot of money in retirement.

[Interview]

[00:27:07] Ramit: You could spend a lot on travel, but what I want to do is actually bring it back to your investment. So how long do you plan to work at this type of company?

[00:27:17] Geena: Maybe in this line of work for another 10 years or something like that, probably.

[00:27:23] Ramit: All right. Let’s take a look at the numbers then. Real back of the napkin stuff, but your current principle that you have in investment, let’s just say 470,000. Okay. Let’s see what happens if you just continue the way you’ve been going for 10 years. All right, $2.2 million at 54 years old. What do you say, Geena?

[00:27:50] Geena: I think I would feel like I wanted to continue working.

[00:27:53] Ramit: Yeah. I’m sure you’re very good at your job and you probably love it. But also, if you’re making this much money, I would like for you to have optionality. Let’s play around with the numbers a little bit. Let’s change these numbers. Let’s add 50k as I talked about. And we’re going to make this $140,000 a year. So instead of 2.5, you end up with 2.9. It’s actually not materially that big. Do you know why that is?

[00:28:22] Geena: No, I thought it might be more different.

[00:28:25] Ramit: It’s because it’s only 10 years.

[00:28:26] Geena: It’s not that much time.

[00:28:27] Ramit: Yeah. The compounding takes a long time to kick in. I’m going to take you, instead of 10 years, let’s make it 15 years. 140k a year. Again, this is, I think, fairly conservative because your income is going to go way up. And to find 50k a year for you, not that hard. Let’s take a look. Whoa. 5 million now. So this is you working 15 years and putting 140k a year.

[00:28:55] 5 million, pretty good. So you’re talking about $200,000 safe withdrawal per year. Not enough. Not enough for both of you. You can’t be 55 and being like, I can’t stay at that hotel because of my freaking SWR. No. No fucking way. We got to do something.

[00:29:18] Geena: I think we’re not factoring in that James will continue to earn more. He’s been building something.

[00:29:25] Ramit: Tell me.

[00:29:26] James: I would like to be earning about three times what I’m earning by the time I’m Geena’s age, hopefully.

[00:29:35] Ramit: Five years to be making 15k a month instead of 5k a month.

[00:29:39] James: Yeah, that’s what I’m trying to build.

[00:29:41] Ramit: Why five years?

[00:29:44] James: Because in my mind, and maybe this is something I know Geena is good at calling me out on, but I perhaps don’t put my rates up enough, and how I’m working and the clients I have and how the business is growing, that’s maybe how long I think it would take.

[00:30:05] Ramit: And you don’t put your rates up because what?

[00:30:09] James: I’m scared of losing the business.

[00:30:11] Ramit: All right. Scarcity mentality, etc. So would you say that that has been present in other parts of your life?

[00:30:19] James: Yes.

[00:30:20] Ramit: Okay. So here we see a complete difference in worldview. Geena’s like, I’m abundant. I’m going to stay at the best hotels in the world and do all this stuff. And if I need more money, I’ll do a side business. No problem. And Geena, you look at James like, why don’t you just raise your rates?

[00:30:40] You’re so great. I saw half your application is about how great James is. Which, James, you should know that. So Geena’s looking at you, James, going like, you’re so great. Why don’t you just raise your rates? It would solve so many problems. And you’re saying, I have these lenses on my eyes, Geena, and the way I see the world is through scarcity.

[00:31:02] And the way that that comes out is, if I raise my rates, they’ll leave. Then where will I be? I’ll be back in credit card debt. Then we’re going to have more fights and on and on and on. Any of this sound familiar?

[Narration]

[00:31:12] Ramit: Before we hear his answer, I need a quick favor from you. If you enjoy this show, please hit the Subscribe button. It really helps me, and it helps my team.

[Interview]

[00:31:22] James: It would be great to be able to be in a position where I can put 5k a month away in investments.

[00:31:30] Ramit: 5k a month would be 33% of gross. That’s pretty high. It’s possible because you have a spouse who’s a really high earner. Your proportional expenses are relatively low. It’s possible. Well, let’s be conservative. Let’s say 20% of gross. That’s the same proportion I threw out just as a general benchmark.

[00:31:53] And that’s 36,000 a year. I like it. All right. You know what? For easy math, I’m going to assume that that starts today. So that would be $176,000 instead of 140,000. 15 years, 7%, let’s take a look. 6 million bucks. That’s a million extra dollars added on. That’s pretty impressive. What do y’all think about it?

[00:32:22] Geena: That’s great. Yeah, I think that’s great.

[00:32:24] Ramit: Awesome. 15 years, not that long. 15 years, you’re going to blink your eyes, and you’re going to be there. Fantastic. I also think that you could easily knock that number up to seven or eight if you wanted to. Basically, what I would do is any additional unexpected income that came in, I would make a rule, something like 75% of that unexpected income goes straight into investments. I do think that you probably need to dial in the travel and cut that back. Would you agree?

[00:32:55] Geena: Yeah.

[00:32:56] Ramit: Can you?

[00:32:58] Geena: Yeah.

[00:32:59] Ramit: Honestly, if I were you, just guessing the way you travel, what it probably means is you’re probably going to go to the same places. You’re probably going to travel at the exact same level, hotels, etc. It probably just means you need to take one less trip per year. Easy. It’s an easy rule.

[Narration]

[00:33:16] Ramit: Let me break down what just happened. I showed Geena that she needs to be investing more. And for someone earning 50k a month, she can easily make it happen. Remember that in my experience, above incomes of $150,000 a year, people really stop tracking their spending. They get sloppy.

[00:33:33] So if someone’s making hundreds of thousands of dollars, and I just casually tell them, hey, find another 50k to invest, for them, it’s not that hard because it’s like finding 10% of the median person’s annual income. 10% can be done. Then I suggested a simple money rule, one less trip per year.

[00:33:54] Notice that in their case, I wouldn’t tell them to downgrade their travel style. Why would I? They make 600-plus thousand dollars a year, but a simple money rule, just cut off one trip per year and bank that money. Boom. They can hit their number. Done. I also got James more involved.

[00:34:12] Now you can hear that his worldview of money is contributing to him not being an active partner. And people who are in this position often do the exact same thing James did. They come up with really, really long timelines for them to increase their income. Five years to make $180,000 a year? No. Hell no.

[00:34:32] The solution is not to just grind it out for five years, especially when your partner doesn’t feel you’re involved. The solution is to fix your worldview of money and master your own money psychology. That can be done a lot faster than five years.

[Interview]

[00:34:48] Ramit: Can we talk about what I think is actually more pressing, which is the dynamic when it comes money between the two? If you had to describe this dynamic, the title of a movie or a book perhaps, how you describe it?

[00:35:05] James: Wait, let’s talk about it. That idea of–

[00:35:09] Geena: Wait.

[00:35:09] Ramit: Wait, implying she’s already off to the races and you feel left behind.

[00:35:15] James: Right.

[00:35:16] Ramit: Geena, how about you?

[00:35:19] Geena: I’m always thinking like, less work, more fun. I’m trying to maximize time and resources and–

[00:35:29] Ramit: Where’s the teamwork in that?

[00:35:31] Geena: Fun. No, that’s not. Yeah. It’s always an intent of things, planning things that I know we both enjoy doing together.

[00:35:43] Ramit: What are you realizing right now? You said, less work, more fun. And I said, that sounds good. Where’s the teamwork in that? And then what did you say?

[00:35:59] Geena: I am thinking of things that we would both enjoy, but I am thinking of them and I’m planning them.

[00:36:08] Ramit: And what happens as a result of that?

[00:36:10] Geena: James feels left out.

[00:36:11] Ramit: Mm-hmm. And you feel?

[00:36:15] Geena: Stressed.

[00:36:18] Ramit: Yeah. Keep going.

[00:36:20] Geena: I think I have a bit of a martyr complex.

[00:36:23] Ramit: Mm-hmm. What else?

[00:36:25] Geena: I could end up feeling resentful at a very far extrapolation.

[00:36:32] Ramit: Nice. Yes. Okay. Great self-diagnosis. That was really good. Just give me that title of the book though. I got to get it.

[00:36:39] Geena: She’s got to have it. I don’t know. I don’t know. Or like, I’ve got this.

[00:36:44] Ramit: I’ve got this.

[00:36:45] Geena: Yeah.

[00:36:45] Ramit: I’ve got this…And the subtitle is, but– finish this subtitle for me.

[00:36:56] Geena: I’ve got this, but–

[00:37:00] Ramit: I really want you to step up, or I’ve got this, but I want a partner.

[00:37:04] Geena: Yeah.

[00:37:06] Ramit: What do you want from him when it comes to money?

[00:37:10] Geena: I want us to be on just more equal footing earnings wise.

[00:37:16] Ramit: That’s not going to happen. You make $46,000 a month.

[Narration]

[00:37:21] Ramit: Pay close attention to what just happened. I asked, what do you want? And Geena replied with a phrase, I just want us to be on more equal footing earnings wise. I don’t really think that’s what she wants, because we all know James is not going to earn $50,000 a month. There’s no shame in saying that. Geena knows it. I know it. James knows it. I don’t think her first answer is actually what she truly wants. I’m going to push back on that a little bit.

[Interview]

[00:37:51] Geena: I want us to be on just more equal footing earnings wise.

[00:37:57] Ramit: That’s not going to happen. You make $46,000 a month.

[00:38:04] Geena: What will be in RSUs next year?

[00:38:06] Ramit: Oh, that’s what we’re doing?

[00:38:07] Geena: I don’t know. It feels different. I don’t know. Some of it. I don’t expect equal or just more shared, more on an approaching level footing kind of.

[00:38:31] Ramit: What’s that? That was a lot of words.

[00:38:33] Geena: I’ve never had a sense of like, I need someone to take care of me. I’ve always been like, I’m going to figure this out. I’ve got this. I’ve always planned to take care of everything myself if I have to, and I’m happy. I’m so grateful that I can treat us and take care of us. But I hope that one day there will be less of a discrepancy between us.

[00:38:57] Ramit: What if there’s not?

[00:38:58] Geena: That would be okay. Maybe over many years I would feel pressure to keep at the same level and I might just become a bit exhausted, but I think I could curtail that by reining in a trip per year or things like we’ve talked about. I would rather feel like we were approaching more level.

[00:39:25] James: Sometimes I do feel like it has already turned sometimes into little bits of resentment. It’s understandable that Geena would want to feel like she was looked after more so than the other way around. I’m used to feeling the way I feel right now, which is, I wish it wasn’t this way, and I wish that I had more consecutive months of really good business like I’ve had recently so that I can be contributing more regularly.

[00:40:11] Ramit: So you have a very interesting relationship dynamic because, Geena, you earn more and considerably more. What kind of conversation would we be having if the genders were reversed?

[Narration]

[00:40:24] Ramit: Let’s take a quick pause to support our sponsors

[00:40:28] Welcome back. Let’s keep going.

[Interview]

[00:40:31] James: I know that she is always someone, and this is what I’ve always been attracted to, is the fact that she is this person you speak of who goes to the gym twice a day and has these grand ideas that she’s able to turn into reality. And it’s amazing. And so I think if it was reversed, it’s hard to imagine that. I don’t know if I can even imagine that.

[00:40:59] Ramit: One of the things that I learned from speaking to couples is that the lower earner, regardless of gender, is almost always obsessed with contributing, the C word.

[Narration]

[00:41:11] Ramit: Let me tell you what is not happening in this conversation. They’re not being disrespectful to each other. It’s clear they love and respect each other. Geena is not saying she expects James to make exactly $50,000 a month. Neither of them is making really unrealistic demands. They’re also not saying specifically what they want. Geena wants James to be engaged with money.

[00:41:35] I can understand her paying more for things like luxury hotels, but why is she the one ordering the detergent? Geena sees money as something you can get if you want. When she hears James say that it’ll take him five years, she can’t understand why he doesn’t just raise his rates or buy a program that teaches you how to improve your money psychology and then raise your rates. The truth is there haven’t been any consequences for James. And their background plays a huge part in this. Let’s learn about their background now.

[Interview]

[00:42:05] Geena: No, my mom never worked. She had worked before I was born, but she was a teacher. But she wanted to be a stay-at-home mom or something. She wasn’t very good at it. My dad worked, but my mom was just constantly just berating him for not earning enough. And I was like, why don’t you do something? You have a master’s degree. Why don’t you go back to work? You don’t need to be home taking care of me.

[00:42:35] Ramit: Did you ever say that?

[00:42:37] Geena: Yes.

[00:42:38] Ramit: Really? Wow. What a precautious young child.

[00:42:41] Geena: I would just be like, you could work. You don’t need to take care of–

[00:42:44] Ramit: How did your Midwest mom respond to that? Please tell me.

[00:42:47] Geena: She was just always angry. It was never [Inaudible].

[00:42:55] Ramit: Wow. That’s interesting. Look, what money messages do you think you absorbed from your mom?

[00:43:03] Geena: Just like, we don’t have enough. I was always aware of how much everything costs, like my piano lessons. This or that was so expensive. We can’t afford. I was aware that I was an expense and a burden always, all the time, just always aware of how much everything costs and how draining it was.

[00:43:24] And after a couple of years after university, my mom sent me a spreadsheet with what she had granted and paid, like school expenses and this and that. And I was just like, oh my God. She did. And this was after I had upleveled my jobs and I was making a lot more money in 2015, ’16. I just started sending the money every month, just like, okay, if this is what you think here, I’m just going to send you so that you can’t even hold this over my head anymore.

[00:43:53] Ramit: I’ve heard this once before of parents who literally gave a card at graduation and it–

[00:43:59] Geena: Yeah, it was like that. Yeah. I grew up with a, I was an only child, very scarcity mindset. For undergrad, I had need-based scholarships, etc. I took out lots of loans to go to law school and everything. And I have never had any ongoing support from my parents.

[00:44:18] I don’t know. And entertainment law, you’re not earning a lot. At first, living in New York City with loans. I was married before. I had a husband who didn’t work. He was from another country and didn’t work for a couple of years, visa stuff and whatnot. And that’s when I got into $50,000 of credit card debt because I was covering for both of us.

[00:44:40] And I was just like, I can’t do this anymore. I just need to uplevel. And I just started working with scarcity mindset and trying to really train myself to focus on abundance and think of myself in a different way. And I got a series of jobs where I just jumped up my income a lot.

[00:45:01] And I made a point of just wiping out all the debt, and that was in 2017 or ’18. And finally, yeah, I just was like– my dad passed away. He worked until the end. My mom is still alive. And yeah, I just was like, I don’t want to be like that at all.

[00:45:22] Ramit: Wow. And what about for you, James? What was money like as a child for you? What did your parents say about it?

[00:45:27] James: I was quite lucky. My dad was a dentist. He did pretty well. And my mom worked as well full-time. And we went on trips. We did cool stuff. We were pretty well looked after. My dad left to go take a job abroad when I was 11. And then he never came back. And then it was like mum was running the house and working extra hours and life became a bit more stressful and weird. And that pretty quickly turned into maybe being a bit of a mediator between my mum and my sisters sometimes.

[00:46:09] Ramit: How do you think that affected your relationship with money? Do you see any connections with that?

[00:46:21] James: As the youngest kid, I always had this feeling of wanting everything just to be okay energy wise. Is everyone all right? Is the energy cool? Are people happy?

[00:46:35] Ramit: That’s interesting. Empathetic for a young boy. At least in the culture I was raised, what’s a feeling? What’s energy? I never heard of that in my life. You know what I mean? For us, it was like, did you get an A plus? Okay, good. If not, what went wrong? That’s interesting to hear you talking about energy and how’s everybody feeling as the only boy in the family. What do you think about that?

[00:47:00] James: I think it comes from hearing people argue, hearing disagreements, hearing friction, hearing family stuff happen–

[00:47:11] Ramit: You want to calm that down.

[00:47:12] James: And just wanting that to go away.

[00:47:16] Ramit: So let’s try to make the connection. Is there one between that quite visceral feeling and your relationship with money?

[00:47:26] Geena: He is so sensitive and empathetic and just such an amazing, soothing presence. And so he’s so sensitive, and I don’t know if this is true, but I’m wondering, like, I was always conscious. I was always made to feel like there’s not enough. You’re such a drain. We can’t afford this. We can’t go on this trip. Do you know how much this costs? And I felt so responsible, like such a drain on my parents. And I don’t know if James ever felt that.

[00:47:56] Ramit: Geena, would you say that he is more empathetic than you are?

[00:48:05] Geena: Yeah.

[00:48:06] Ramit: Great. Okay. That’s actually really helpful to hear. Okay, fantastic. James, you like to keep the peace. You’re attuned to energy. Makes sense. If, for example, you were to increase your rates by 35%, how would your clients react?

[00:48:25] James: I think they would react, some of them, maybe a hesitation and maybe a thought of I’m forever thinking about the bigger issue, especially the music industry, whether it’s a band or a label or someone who just doesn’t have the money. I think I have a scarcity mindset that’s maybe extended to the point where I’m assuming their position is maybe like my position. So why would I want to–

[00:48:58] Ramit: That’s right.

[00:48:59] James: Risk upsetting or potentially pushing away a client?

[Narration]

[00:49:04] Ramit: I find it really interesting how people transform their backgrounds into their choices of today. For example, Geena was raised in a family without much money, no family support, and now she’s making a ton of money in a high-income career.

[00:49:20] But what’s interesting is that I’ve talked to tons of other people who are raised in similar families. They grew up without much, no family support. Oftentimes, they get into crippling amounts of debt. They develop a very unhealthy relationship with money. What’s different about Geena? What made her excel in her career?

[00:49:45] Honestly, that’s the puzzle of human nature. We may never know. James grew up in an unstable family. His dad left. He played the role of the mediator, and his conclusion was to become very empathetic, meaning to him, don’t raise your price. Again, how someone ends up at a particular behavior and belief needs a lot more time than a single conversation. But if I had more time with James, I would definitely want to dig in there.

[Interview]

[00:50:11] Ramit: What I don’t hear is clear expectation. Geena, I think from your perspective, you knew James’s career path, and you also knew your career And they’re radically different simply from the monetary perspective. You’re always going to make more. Let’s accept it. With that said, you can want certain things from your partner, but we got to be specific about it. What is it that you want? Give me specifics that I could observe with a clipboard.

[00:50:40] Geena: I want James to have some sense of ownership of, he’s set up his Roth IRA. He’s contributing to investments. He’s got his little brokerage account, maybe, and he’s doing something with that, and he’s really owning it, or contributing to ours together. I don’t like being the only one doing all of those things.

[00:51:02] I help him pay his studio rent when I help him with his fixed costs. I recently helped him pay off a credit card. I know he needs new running sneakers. I know we need these groceries. I know we need this. Just the everyday bits and pieces. We run out of laundry detergent. Sometimes I feel like I’m mom.  It’s something I create and do.

[00:51:26] There are still months when he’s short for some of his fixed costs or things like that, and I will help bridge the gap. I don’t want that to happen. I want him to be really smooth sailing where he’s got buffer and there’s never going to be a question of paying like studio rent or anything like that. It’s all easy covered, well covered all the time.

[00:51:49] Ramit: I love this. What else?

[00:51:50] Geena: I was thinking of automatic response like, I want him to plan trips and take me, but I don’t really need that. I like planning and organizing. I think we’ve learned that I can try to include him more and maybe ultimately, he can split some of the costs of the plane tickets or things like that with me, and we can have a conversation and choose some of those things together and maybe 1 day split some of those costs.

[00:52:15] Ramit: All right. James, what about you? What do you want with this money dynamic in your mind?

[00:52:19] James: A sense that I can contribute to things, that I’ve set up a solo 401K, but there’s nothing in it. And I’d like to be able to start putting things in there. And just recently, I’ve got $1,000 left on a credit card. That was a real problem for me for a couple of years. Just floating and causing a lot of stress for me and making things hard every month.

[00:52:51] Now that’s gone. Yeah, I would like to make a big push toward putting things away more every month on the months that I can, because it won’t be regular, but on the months that I can. I’m happy for Geena to continue and book the trips that she wants to book and these things that I can see she’s actually passionate about. And as someone who’s earning much less, I would never want to take anything away. I would never want to say to Geena, like, you maybe shouldn’t have booked that trip with those crazy flights on Qantas or whatever it was.

[00:53:31] Geena: I want him not to think of himself as the one who’s always earning less. When he says, once that I can contribute, because it will always be up and down, I want to be at a point where you always will be able to contribute something.

[00:53:46] Ramit: When you’ve been playing small for so long, oftentimes that’s all you know. I heard the same thing, Geena, that you heard, which is this, I hope that most months I can, but there’ll be months that I can’t. In my world, there is zero months where I’m not contributing to my household ever. It’s like breathing oxygen. You feel the same way, right, Geena?

[00:54:10] Geena: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

[00:54:12] Ramit: James, you don’t.

[00:54:14] James: It tells me that I don’t think enough of myself. I don’t think big enough.

[00:54:18] Ramit: Correct. Quite a realization. And I think that is one of the core things here. This idea of playing small, that maybe it was my credit card debt, or it’s this recurring thing that I’ve had hanging over me. We’ve got to find a way for you to turn the page into the new chapter. Now, do you want that? That’s my question for you.

[00:54:46] James: Yeah, of course.

[00:54:47] Ramit: Okay. I didn’t hear that.

[00:54:54] James: Like you say, it’s almost like it’s just the narrative that’s stuck. Even just hearing it in my head, it sounds like a bit of a broken record or something that’s–

[00:55:07] Geena: Yeah. And when you said it, I was like, oh, no, not that again. That’s why I had to jump in.

[00:55:14] Ramit: Now we’re starting to get real. Okay, well, now let me read you what you wrote in your application. You wrote, “I’ve paid off five figures of his credit card debt, as that was always the excuse, but even still, he’s not able to save and meaningfully get ahead.”

[00:55:29] James: I feel like this thing about contributing and trying to get credit for contributing, on my end, there’s some weird energy there. I feel like, I don’t know. Sorry. My head is full of stuff.

[00:55:47] Ramit: What if Geena got hit by a bus tomorrow? What would happen?

[00:55:51] James: I would be in trouble. I wouldn’t be able to live in New York City. We’ve talked about that.

[00:55:56] Ramit: What would you do then?

[00:55:59] James: I’d have to move away or move to where I’ve got some friends or move home.

[00:56:05] Ramit: What would you do for money?

[00:56:07] James: I could still do what I do and live somewhere that’s cheaper and has less expenses and make things work for myself.

[00:56:17] Ramit: You could probably be tough on 60k a year anywhere.

[00:56:22] James: Yeah.

[00:56:23] Ramit: I think everything you said is right, and I love the honesty. I’d be in trouble. Who’s the solution? Geena. Geena will get the Lysol, will pay the credit card debt off, will plan the trips, all of it. And the question I asked was, what if she wasn’t here? What if she got hit by a bus?

[00:56:46] But also, Geena, it would be a tragedy to leave your partner without the skills or capabilities or knowledge to even survive. Teamwork means we got to equip our partner, both of us, with the knowhow to survive in case something happens to us.

[Narration]

[00:57:10] Ramit: James is a very nice guy who’s become used to Geena taking care of most financial things. Yes, he feels disempowered. Yes, he has money issues from his childhood. And yes, Geena also reinforces this dynamic, and that’s why I’ll get further from helping him realize the stories he tells himself than from yelling things like, hey, James, you need to man up. I fucking hate that phrase, by the way.

[00:57:36] Geena and James want to be together in a more equitable, rewarding relationship. Great. They’re not here to be humiliated. They’re not here for me to take sides. That’s why I’m taking the long, slow route, even talking a lot to Geena at the beginning, so that James feels much more comfortable to open up and realize why he’s behaving this way.

[Interview]

[00:58:00] Ramit: You see the world completely differently. And we can change it in lots of different subtle ways, but it’s really that, scarcity, abundance. I want this type of lifestyle, and I’m willing to do anything to get it. Versus, I don’t know what’s going to happen. If they leave, then I’m in trouble. It’s a lot of internal voices. James, you hear those, right?

[00:58:25] James: Yeah.

[00:58:26] Ramit: Geena, you’ve heard this podcast. You’ve heard many folks who come on, and they are subsidized, or they are protected. I don’t mind people helping each other, like it’s great, especially spouses and kids. It’s fine. But it’s one thing for you to swoop in and save the day, as you have on multiple occasions, credit card, studio.

[00:58:50] But you can’t do that and then at the same time say I want a partner who takes ownership over their IRA, etc. It’s not fair to James. And James, it’s not fair to Geena. The problem is both of you are really nice and you actually obviously love each other. It’s so obvious.

[00:59:11] What you are doing, saying, and not saying is causing you to have a wedge in between you. I’ll give you a more healthy approach to what you might do there. What you might do instead is to sit down and say, hey, let’s talk about our CSP. Let’s talk about our vision for what we want to do this year.

[00:59:34] And let’s talk about numbers. We’re going to have some really honest conversations. I love you. Nothing said here is about hurting you, vice versa. But we got to unwrap this knot that we’ve gotten ourselves into and create the life that we both deserve. Cool, we can all agree on that. So it’s like, start off at the real high level. How do we want to feel? I suspect you probably haven’t talked about what life looks like with 5 million at age 55 or 6 million or 10 million, and those are probably conversations I would encourage you to have.

[01:00:07] Geena: Yeah, we generally know that we’d like to live in New York maybe, and maybe overseas, have a couple places, spend time, very general broad strokes.

[01:00:19] Ramit: It might be time to get more specific. Your solution might be, let’s create a joint account. James, how much can you contribute? And whatever James says, you need to pick a number that is substantive. James needs to find a way to hit that number no matter what. And the rule is there’s no coming back to Geena for support with your business.

[01:00:42] That’s a business issue. That’s your business. It’s up to you. When you make that clear, Geena, that light’s a fire. Because suddenly there’s something on the line. James is like, oh, I don’t have a safety net. I’m going to solve that. And suddenly all those scary voices in his head, James goes, fuck you. I’m not listening to those voices anymore because I need to be sending $4,000 a month to our joint account.

[01:01:08] Geena: Mm-hmm.

[01:01:09] Ramit: James is suddenly staying up late. James is suddenly saying, I actually can’t take that trip to Morocco next year or next month because I need to work on this business if I’m going to contribute my $4,000.

[01:01:20] Geena: Mm-hmm.

[01:01:22] James: That sounds great, and I think it could work really, really well. One thing that comes into my mind when I think about that, saying, for example, this trip that we’ve got planned, actually, I’m going to sit that one out because I know I have to knuckle down.

[01:01:43] That’s a quiet time, so I’m going to have to work really hard to get into some work. There’s a thing that happens again in my mind where I feel almost it’s expected of me that I will go and be a partner in that way, not dishonor the opportunity that has been presented to me in that trip, for example.

[01:02:04] Ramit: So how would you deal with that?

[01:02:06] James: I think I would just say, yeah, I have to work. I can’t do it.

[01:02:14] Ramit: Because? Pin it back to the North Star.

[01:02:17] James: Because I have to be knuckling down during that time, because I know if I don’t meet my commitments and I don’t contribute to our joint account, all that stuff that, I think, sounds great, I would feel very bad about myself.

[01:02:33] Ramit: Maybe just, because I committed to my numbers, and I’m going to follow through.

[01:02:39] James: Yeah, because I committed to my numbers and so I want to follow through.

[01:02:42] Ramit: That’s it. And the more you say it, and then the more you do it, and sometimes you’ll have to make some very difficult decisions, like not going on a dream trip, I wouldn’t be surprised, Geena, anyone, would be a little bit upset, a little bit taken back, like, hey, why don’t you come anyway? Don’t worry about it.

[01:03:00] But actually, you sticking to your guns and following through on your commitment would engender more respect than anything else. And there is a future where you don’t have to turn down trips, where you can actually build that into your schedule. The two of you can sync up, December of each year, do your annual Rich Life review, plan where you’re going to go, you work with all your clients and sequence it out. That could happen very soon.

[01:03:28] James: I hear it, and I want to step up, and I want to meet the goals. I feel excited about it actually.

[01:03:36] Ramit: I like that.

[01:03:37] Geena: Yeah.

[01:03:38] James: Yeah, I feel like the kind of conversations that we can have now can feel more positive than maybe what they’ve become.

[01:03:48] Ramit: Money is a small but important part of a Rich Life. It’s important in the way that we have to talk about it, we have to create a healthy relationship with money, with ourselves, with each other, yes, but it’s also small in that it’s not everything. You can contribute to this relationship in multiple ways. You can contribute more money. You can also contribute your energy, your empathy. You can contribute household tasks, and you two can be a united partnership.

[Narration]

[01:04:25] Although they have a dynamic that each of them reinforces, most of the work here, in my opinion, needs to be done on the part of James. Yes, Geena needs to set clearer expectations, and she probably needs to rebalance some of the household responsibilities to James.

[01:04:40] But it really is James who needs to find a way to improve his money psychology, commit to a number, and then deliver. This episode reminds me a lot of Episode 64 and 65, where Connie made $200,000 per month, and we got to hear fascinating expectations and gender dynamics. I’ll link those in the show notes.  Let’s check out the follow-up from James and Geena. First, James.

[01:05:10] James: From our conversation, I feel like I now have a much clearer picture about where we actually are and what needs more work. Just hearing it in our conversation, it was like I was hearing the way she was feeling for the first time in many ways. Thinking about how I have this scarcity mindset built in and the family part of that is really interesting. I’ve never thought about that before.

[01:05:39] I have the scarcity mindset from being in bands and working in music and just focusing on just having enough to pay the rent check. I was really pleasantly surprised how I felt at the end of the conversation, empowered and feeling like I can think bigger.

[01:06:01] And then changes, we’ve already set up joint account. We have a card saved onto Amazon for joint household expenses. So we talked about ways that I can make sure that I am taking care of this realm set of things, these household items. We agreed on one less trip, and we agreed that I would sit out trips as needed if I need to be here working.

[01:06:32] There are some interesting hybrid opportunities, some contract work. There’s a music house in LA that actually reached out to me on Tuesday, coincidentally, offering me some work, so some good things for maximizing, putting rates up.

[01:06:48] Ramit: And now Geena’s follow-up.

[01:06:51] Geena: One of James’s first comments after the call was to say, I hope no one I know hears that. That made me a bit sad, but then I thought, well, he’s still working out some of his thinking small, and I’m really excited for him to get beyond that. I was also surprised at how deeply we are stuck in this dynamics loop.

[01:07:10] So we’ve already made changes. We have designated a shared credit card for household expenses. That’s like apartment things, cleaning supplies, the mundane and repeat items that I tend to just get and feel like a certain way about. We’re going to fund this via a joint checking account.

[01:07:25] And we’ve confirmed with our accountant that James’s Roth IRA and solo 401K, how to approach those and where to set them up so that he can be ready to fund them. I learned that we are really on the same page about our dynamics, for better or for worse, but we really are on the same page, and for our Rich Life and our bigger picture visions. And I learned that it’s way easier than I thought to be very direct about these things. It feels good to be direct.