Episode #175: “I make 5x my bf’s salary—but I’m about to lose my job”

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[00:00:00] Ramit: In today’s conversation–

[00:00:01] Mindy: I want a partner who’s there by my side.

[00:00:04] Victor: It’s a little weird talking about money. I always feel like I’m doing something wrong.

[00:00:09] Ramit: Meet Victor and Mindy.

[00:00:10] Mindy: I feel like Victor is a dreamer and I’m more of a realist.

[00:00:13] Victor: I’m more complacent. I just see money as something that comes and goes.

[00:00:18] Ramit: Mindy is 39. Victor is 25, and they have fundamentally different views on money.

[00:00:23] Victor: I don’t do crazy spendings. I don’t buy myself nothing crazy.

[00:00:28] Mindy: I would travel four or five times a year, make my own schedule, take a vacation, I can afford whatever I want to do.

[00:00:36] Ramit: He wants a simple life. She explicitly does not want a simple life.

[00:00:41] Mindy: I feel like it’s just not working for me. We need a compromise.

[00:00:44] Victor: I feel like she deserves more. I want to provide.

[00:00:49] Ramit: Are there age and income differences too big to overcome?

[00:00:52] Mindy: I feel like I’m carrying most of the weight.

[00:00:55] Ramit: You’re not teammates. You two have not earned the trust to combine your finances. This is not a functioning relationship with money right now.

[Narration]

[00:01:02] Ramit: Welcome to the Money for Couples show, formerly known as the IWT podcast. On today’s episode, we’ll talk with Mindy and Victor. She’s a 39-year-old software consultant, and he’s a 25-year-old owner of a boxing gym. They see money very differently, and it’s causing tension in their relationship.

[00:01:22] As a quick reminder, if you’re listening to this on a podcast app, please remember to check out our YouTube channel where you can watch these episodes in full, including their body language and facial expressions, which I find especially interesting. And if you watch on YouTube, click subscribe to make sure you get all of our new videos.

[Interview]

[00:01:39] Mindy: Maybe two months ago, we sat down because I was trying to help him put things on paper because I asked questions like, what does your money situation look like this month? Budgeting questions like, do you know how much you’re making? Do you know how much you’re spending, stuff like that?

[00:02:03] Because I write these things down. I track these things, but he doesn’t. And then he has his own business. So I was asking, how many clients do you have? We were talking about it because he was getting basically kicked out of the gym that he was at and he had to find another place. So we were making a list of clients and how likely are they to stay, stick with him or maybe just not come back or whatever.

[00:02:36] Ramit: Do you get nervous talking about money?

[00:02:38] Mindy: Yeah.

[00:02:39] Ramit: You do. Why?

[00:02:40] Mindy: I do. Because it’s so not talked about. I grew up just not. We don’t talk about money at all.

[00:02:50] Ramit: Mm-hmm. And in this relationship?

[00:02:53] Mindy: In this relationship we do. I feel like I initiate the conversations otherwise I feel like I wouldn’t know anything. I think we should talk about money every week or maybe every couple of weeks, at least once a month to get an idea of what the month looks like.

[00:03:12] Ramit: And do you do that?

[00:03:14] Mindy: We don’t.

[00:03:15] Ramit: How come?

[00:03:16] Mindy: Well, because we get into an argument. I feel like Victor gets defensive. And I feel like it just escalates where it doesn’t need to be because I feel like, and maybe it’s my tone of how I’m asking too. It’s like attacking or it’s like, why haven’t you done X, Y, and Z? And you should do it my way, let’s say. But I’m learning everybody has their own way, but I feel like I’ve I been observing long enough that I know his method is not working. So I’m trying to offer a better solution.

[00:03:56] Ramit: Can you think of a specific example where you brought up money and then Victor got defensive? Where were you, and what happened in that conversation?

[00:04:08] Mindy: I asked him, probably, are you going to be able to make the rent this month? Something along those lines. And he gave me an answer like, yeah, I’ll figure it out. I’ll find a way. It’s like the money will be there. Don’t worry about it. Don’t ask anything else.

[00:04:30] And I’m like, well, okay. Did your clients– everyone pay you on time? And then I start asking more questions. So like, did everyone pay you on time? And I’m trying to make calculations in my mind. And then he’s like, ugh. It’s just like, stop asking.

[00:04:49] Ramit: And how did that conversation end?

[00:04:55] Mindy: By him changing the subject and I just shut my mouth and that’s it and don’t ask again.

[00:05:02] Ramit: Is that typical when you talk about money?

[00:05:04] Mindy: Yes.

[00:05:05] Ramit: Okay. So when that happens, and you ask the question, are you going to have the rent? What are you really asking there?

[00:05:14] Mindy: I feel like I want security to know that like, okay, whatever he is contributing is like, okay, because I obsess over money. So my obsession takes over to him. And then I want to know like, okay, is his portion okay? Or am I going to need to move some things around in order to cover him or whatever it is. I’m always nervous.

[00:05:41] Ramit: Victor, do you remember that conversation where Mindy came to you and said, are you going to have the rent this month?

[00:05:47] Victor: Yeah, I do.

[00:05:50] Ramit: What happened in that conversation?

[00:05:52] Victor: I was a little bit stressed because I have clients that haven’t paid yet. And it was like, I’m trying to get the money and blah blah. So I just came out a little bit rude, and I didn’t want to talk about it. And I felt a little bit under attack, and I was in a defense mode. For me, it’s a little bit weird talking about money. I always feel like I’m doing something wrong.

[00:06:31] Mindy: I feel like Victor is a dreamer and I’m more of a realist.

[00:06:35] Ramit: Oh.

[00:06:36] Mindy: He is like, oh, I can just imagine myself with all these gyms and all these things. And it’s like, that’s great, but how are you going to get there? And let’s put that into action. And how do you want to do that? Then we talk about things, but we don’t really dive deeper and say, what are the steps that are needed? What does that look like on paper? What does that look like monetarily?

[00:07:07] He is a dreamer, but he’s also much more riskier than I am. He takes way more risks, especially with money and everything. He just went for it. But I feel like I’m the security net, the unseen security net because I was always the one with the steady paycheck, regular nine to five job. And he just always wanted to open a gym.

[Narration]

[00:07:44] Ramit: Did you catch the dynamic here? Mindy obsesses about money and then chases Victor to get an answer from him. He avoids her first by reassuring her, it’s going to be fine. It’s fine. Then he just gets defensive. This is the chaser-avoider dynamic in relationships.

[00:08:02] By the way, this thing where one partner reassures the other honestly drives me crazy. If my wife came to me worried about our investments, which she would never do because we talk about money regularly, I could legitimately reassure her because I know what I’m talking about. But the people who reassure their partners are always the least knowledgeable about money.

[00:08:24] They’re the ones who avoid money and then they go, it’s going to be fine. How on earth can you reassure someone about a topic you know nothing about? Let’s dig into their backgrounds. Mindy is older than Victor and she’s more established in her career. Listen to her, describe her journey.

[Interview]

[00:08:39] Mindy: I was able to afford everything on my own. As a woman, my mom always said– both my parents, they always told me, just make sure you’re good on your own. You don’t need a man to support you. Just do everything. They pushed all of us. I have two brothers, but I’m the only daughter. And my culture is very, I don’t know, different.

[00:09:09] Ramit: What culture is that?

[00:09:10] Mindy: I’m Lebanese.

[00:09:11] Ramit: Lebanese. Okay. So you were proud that you were earning money and you were able to pay for your own expenses. Then Victor moved in and Victor assured you he can cover things. So Victor came in. He started paying proportionally for rent and other expenses. So that must have felt even better, right?

[00:09:31] Mindy: At first I feel like I didn’t charge him rent maybe for the first two, three months, not much, just so he can get on his feet. But after that, at the point where he started paying rent regularly, I was like, yeah, this feels great because now I have whatever amount it was, extra money that I can put into savings and I can start investing.

[00:09:55] Ramit: Walk me through that time where you felt good about money till now. What’s changed?

[00:10:01] Mindy: Well, I’m losing my job at the end of October. When I didn’t know I was getting laid off and everything was going great, I was investing. I was saving. I was doing everything that I thought to be right. And then it just felt like it got pulled from underneath me.

[00:10:21] Ramit: So you know the date that you’re going to be let go, which is how many months from now?

[00:10:28] Mindy: About two months.

[00:10:29] Ramit: Two months. Okay. All right. So you know that’s going to happen. Do you have another job lined up?

[00:10:34] Mindy: No.

[00:10:35] Ramit: Got it. So your income is going to go to zero, right?

[00:10:43] Mindy: Yeah, basically.

[00:10:44] Ramit: Okay. That’s scary. But I want to take a look at the finances to understand what that means. Victor, what do you think about this, the fact that Mindy’s going to get laid off in two months?

[00:10:55] Victor: I feel like a job is never secure. And you can never feel secure having any type of job. When you’re working for someone, if it doesn’t work for them, they can just lay you off.

[00:11:13] Ramit: Do you two think you see money the same way?

[00:11:15] Mindy: I think of money as spending.

[00:11:18] Ramit: But that’s a little interesting because you told me that at a certain point you were investing a lot. You had a big smile, a lot of pride when you were saying that.

[00:11:27] Mindy: Yeah. I think that’s the people pleaser in me. I feel like I’m not good enough. That’s just a thing. I was like, I’m not doing enough. So I got to push a little more. I got to do a little more, and then it’s never going to be enough. So it’s like I’ve never reached a point where I’m like, okay, now I can sit back and relax.

[Narration]

[00:11:50] Ramit: Let’s take a quick break to hear from our sponsors.

[00:11:53] Ramit: Now back to the show.

[Interview]

[00:11:55] Ramit: Coming back to the question of how you see money versus how Victor sees money, how does Victor see money?

[00:12:01] Mindy: I don’t know how to explain it. It’s just whatever. It’s just nothing. It’s no big deal. It comes, goes. It’s all good. I’ll make more. There’s no real seriousness about it because he’s in general a more care-free person, and he’s just not worried about the little minute details.

[00:12:26] Ramit: Are you?

[00:12:27] Mindy: I am, very.

[00:12:29] Ramit: You’re in the spreadsheet, you’re checking transactions, you’re logging into your app every day, that kind of thing?

[00:12:36] Mindy: Yeah.

[00:12:37] Ramit: Victor, do you think you see money differently than Mindy does?

[00:12:42] Victor: I do feel like I see money differently.

[00:12:44] Ramit: Tell me.

[00:12:47] Victor: I think just– how to say, I’m more complacent I feel like. And it might be because the way I grew up. I’m complacent with what I have. I I don’t do crazy spendings. I I don’t buy myself nothing crazy. And I don’t feel like I need that to be happy. And yeah, I just see money as something that comes and goes. It’s always a rollercoaster for me, I feel like.

[00:13:33] Ramit: Okay, that’s illuminating. And how do you think that Mindy sees money?

[00:13:38] Victor: I feel like she is very serious when it comes to money, very straightforward. We totally see the money differently. I see money as happiness and freedom. I feel like that’s my goal. That’s my happy life– what do you say? My happy life or my–

[00:14:03] Mindy: Rich Life.

[00:14:04] Victor: My Rich Life. Yeah, that’s my Rich Life. Just being able to be free and have time for myself and my friends.

[00:14:12] Ramit: Do you think that you can live a successful, happy, Rich Life together with your different views on money?

[00:14:23] Victor: No, I don’t think so. I feel like we have to be in the same page a little bit. I have to get there. I have to be at the same level as her so I can be able to afford more for her and for me. But I don’t need much. But I feel like I’m like always in a hurry.

[00:14:56] And we are in two different parts in our lives. She’s 13 years older than me, so I feel like she already passed all her 20s and all that. I’m still trying to figure it out, which is not bad. I like the fact that I have a little bit like a fire under my ass. Yeah, that’s how I feel, that I want to get there for her and for me.

[00:15:35] Ramit: Well, I’m a little confused because you said that money comes and goes. You said, I don’t need much. I don’t really need much. I feel like I need to make more money for her so that we’re at an equal level. So those are all mutually exclusive.

[Narration]

[00:15:52] Ramit: Mindy and Victor obviously see money totally differently. Take the fact that Mindy’s about to lose her job. She knows it. She’s talking about it. She’s concerned about it. Victor’s response is, well, a job is never secure. That’s actually a very common way of thinking for people who grew up poor, especially men who grew up poor.

[00:16:12] Now, I don’t yet know if Victor grew up poor, but this is a pattern I’ve noticed where a man will simply say, shit happens. That’s why you got to work hard. It’s this idea that you’re always going to be facing hardship. So why are we even talking about this? Just put your head down and grind. I’ve seen this many times on this podcast. And Mindy is saying, hey, we don’t actually have to face that hardship if we plan together.

[Interview]

[00:16:39] Ramit: I think we should take a look at the Conscious Spending Plan. That will certainly help me understand what’s going on here. Can you read the word in bold and the full number next to it for each of these entries under net worth?

[00:16:55] Mindy: Okay, so assets, 33,000; investments, 46,678; savings, 25,255; and debt is 29,341. So total net worth of 75,592.

[00:17:19] Ramit: What do you think of those numbers?

[00:17:22] Mindy: They’re very low.

[00:17:23] Ramit: Oh, how do you know that?

[00:17:28] Mindy: It’s not what I imagined having at my age, but I’m not surprised because I just started investing and saving a lot.

[00:17:39] Ramit: Okay. What about you? What do you think, Victor?

[00:17:44] Victor: I feel like it’s low for her, but for me, I don’t know nothing about investments or nothing. She’s been talking to me about it since she found you. And she’d been talking to me that I should start saving money and all that. Yeah.

[00:18:05] Ramit: Do you listen?

[00:18:09] Victor: No, I don’t. To be honest, I don’t.

[00:18:12] Ramit: Okay. I like the honesty.

[00:18:16] Victor: Yeah, yeah.

[00:18:20] Ramit: That’s okay. That’s like 95% of my readers anyway. They don’t even listen to me. All right. Let’s go to the income part. I found this particularly interesting. Victor, read this combined monthly income. What’s this number here?

[00:18:37] Victor: $14,707.

[00:18:41] Ramit: Yeah. Per month.

[00:18:43] Victor: Per month.

[00:18:44] Ramit: So that’s $176,000 a year is what the two of you make. Did you know that, first of all?

[00:18:53] Mindy: No.

[00:18:54] Victor: No, we didn’t know that.

[00:18:55] Ramit: Thank you very much. Thank you. Yet again, proving that at least 50% of the people I talk to do not even know how much money they make. Can I just say like, you two are unmarried? You’ve been together for six years, I believe. Right?

[00:19:10] Victor: Mm-hmm.

[00:19:10] Mindy: Yeah.

[00:19:11] Ramit: Did you combine your finances or no?

[00:19:15] Victor: No.

[00:19:16] Ramit: Together you make $176,000. Does that seem like a lot or a little?

[00:19:21] Victor: For me it is a lot.

[00:19:23] Mindy: For me it’s not enough for where we live.

[00:19:28] Ramit: What’s enough?

[00:19:29] Mindy: That’s the question. I don’t know. There is never enough.

[00:19:35] Ramit: Ever?

[00:19:36] Mindy: Maybe when I’m starting to make $300,000 a year. That would be nice. Then maybe I’ll be happy.

[00:19:44] Ramit: Have you ever listened to anyone on this freaking podcast?

[00:19:49] Mindy: Yes.

[00:19:49] Ramit: I literally scour the earth to find multi multi-millionaires just so I can ask him one single question. Is it enough? And then what do they always say? Tell me.

[00:19:59] Mindy: No.

[00:20:00] Ramit: No, it’s never enough. It doesn’t feel like enough. I go, I fucking told you. The amount you make is uncorrelated to whatever.

[00:20:09] Mindy: And then I get mad because I’m like, I would be fine with that. I wish I had that.

[00:20:13] Ramit: Do you know how many people are going to listen to this and say, if I made $176,000 a year, I would have so much extra money left over, I would never worry about it?

[00:20:23] Mindy: No, I know that those people exist, but where do they live? Where do they live?

[00:20:30] Victor: I said to her at some point, I’m like, I do feel like I can make a little bit more if we bring down the rent or something. So we can move somewhere else cheaper.

[00:20:49] Ramit: Your rent is like nothing. I think you’re focusing on the wrong thing. Like, oh, if we lowered our rent. Your rent is already relatively low, especially for your area. That’s not the problem. Your income is actually high. I’m sure you could make more, but it’s not simply that. And if we look at your fixed costs, let’s just take a look. What is that number next to the fixed costs, Victor? What’s this number right here?

[00:21:16] Victor: 56%.

[00:21:21] Ramit: Yeah, that’s your fixed cost, 56%. So typically, I like to see that number between 50 to 60%. You guys are right down the middle, 56%. So your fixed costs are totally within parameters. That means it’s not like you’re overspending on anything crazy. And I looked through this. Your housing costs are fine. In fact, I would say they’re good.

[00:21:42] Your car payment’s a little high. We could talk about that, but it’s nothing absolutely crazy. Everything is pretty reasonable. So there’s nothing that’s crazy here. The problem occurs when we go down the CSP.

[00:21:57] Your investments are at zero. That’s a problem. Because it means you’re not getting ahead. The only place true wealth is created is in this category, investments. And you have zero. I know you have some 401k. That’s great. I’m happy for that. But at $176,000, theoretically, if you want to be getting ahead, you could be doing a little more.

[00:22:16] Your savings are at 27%. That’s pretty high. And we can talk about where the money’s going, but there’s certainly margin to be played with, or there’s money to go around, and then you have your guilt-free spending at 18%. Is this number accurate or not? What do you spend 1,700 bucks a month on?

[00:22:33] Mindy: Eating out mostly.

[00:22:35] Ramit: Okay. So eating out. What else?

[00:22:37] Mindy: I do some shopping. I buy a few things here and there. Victor will buy himself a pair of sneakers once in a while.

[00:22:45] Ramit: All I right. So that number is pretty accurate. Fine. Can I just tell you something? Let me ask a couple more questions first. This debt, you have $29,000. What kind of debt is that?

[00:22:58] Mindy: It’s both our car loans. I think that’s it. And Victor’s a couple of thousand dollars of debt to the IRS and CTDRS.

[00:23:13] Ramit: Let me tell you what I see.

[00:23:15] Mindy: Yeah.

[00:23:15] Ramit: I see a high income. I see your fixed cost number is within parameters. So I have no comments on how you’re spending. In fact, I think your housing costs are good, especially for your area. I think the CSP looks like a pretty healthy CSP.

[00:23:33] We then have to ask the next question. What are the problems? Well, if you were 25 years old, I would say– well, Victor, you are 25 years old. If both of you were 25 years old, I would say, keep going. You’re doing great. Invest a little bit, you’re good. Because Mindy, you’re, I think, 39 years old, we will want to calculate, are you investing enough? How much? All that stuff.

[00:23:58] And obviously, we want to be putting more money towards that. But the real thing that stands out to me is the income disparity. Mindy, you’re making 12,300 bucks a month. Victor, you’re making 1,500 bucks a month or so.

[00:24:16] Victor: Uh-huh.

[00:24:17] Ramit: If you both decide that this is fine. This is how it’s going to be. Then you have a working CSP. All the numbers work out. It’s fine. But I don’t think that’s really the problem. Do you? I think the problem is that you two see money completely differently. You don’t talk about it.

[00:24:41] Victor, you don’t have the curiosity to get engaged with money because your view is money comes, money goes. It’s no big deal. If something happens, we’ll figure it out. And Mindy, you’re saying, I need security. I need to know certain answers, and I need a partner in this. I can’t be the one doing it on my own.

[00:25:01] Mindy: Exactly.

[00:25:04] Ramit: We have several things going on here. Mindy, you’re a worrier. You worry about money. In fact, even when your CPS looks good, you never actually just came out and said, oh, this is good. You just worry about it. You focus right on what’s wrong with it. What is this? The Lebanese upbringing? Are you guys the same as Indian people? It’s like, what’s wrong? You’re never like, oh, we did a great job. It’s like, ah, fuck.

[00:25:27] Mindy: It’s like, you can do better. Straight A’s.

[00:25:30] Ramit: We’re the same. Okay, I get it.

[00:25:31] Mindy: It’s the same.

[00:25:33] Ramit: Okay, so there’s that, which it’s good because it makes you achieve. You’re earning a lot of money. It’s amazing. You probably thank your parents for teaching you about that. But also, you’re never going to feel good about your accomplishments because you never feel adequate. You never feel enough.

[00:25:55] By the way, do we have the two cultures least likely to be found seeing a therapist on this call right now? A Puerto Rican and a Lebanese woman. What is it? Have you ever been within 20 miles of a therapist? Tell me the truth.

[00:26:08] Mindy: I’ve had a therapist for years. Yes.

[00:26:13] Ramit: What? No way. Amazing. Okay, I applaud. And Victor, what about you?

[00:26:16] Mindy: Absolutely not.

[00:26:19] Victor: I just punch the bag and let all– yeah, yeah.

[00:26:25] Ramit: Now, that is funny. Okay. Interesting. So to go back to it, Mindy, you constantly feel inadequate about money, even though in many ways you’ve accomplished some really impressive things. Sure, there are things we can work on, but if you can’t ever feel good about money, it’ll be hard to spend more time, and it will certainly be hard to create a healthy culture in your household around money.

[Narration]

[00:26:56] Ramit: I joked around with them about all of our cultures, but I do feel grateful to be able to understand multiple perspectives on money, especially as someone who grew up the son of immigrants in America. The cultural beliefs that we grow up with are rarely written down somewhere, but they are pervasive and they are deeply held, and they affect the way that we relate to money for our entire lives. I am curious to know more about Victor’s background when it comes to money.

[00:27:24] Before we get to that, let’s take a quick break to support our sponsors.

[00:27:28] Let’s get back into our conversation with Victor and Mindy.

[Interview]

[00:27:32] Ramit: Okay. Victor, did you grow up poor?

[00:27:37] Victor: I cannot say that I grew up poor. I felt like as a very young child, I have it all, because of my grandparents. They used to take care of us, and then something happened, where he did like a bad business and he lost pretty much everything.

[00:28:03] Ramit: Oh, who did that? Your grandfather?

[00:28:05] Mindy: His grandfather.

[00:28:06] Victor: Yeah, my grandpa. And then I felt like that stuck with me. I think that’s why I have that view of like, money comes and goes.

[00:28:20] Ramit: It’s very insightful. It’s interesting, in families, things will happen. There will be some alcoholic uncle or aunt, and the stories of that person will get passed down. And interestingly, people often react in totally different ways. Some people will go, I’m never starting a business. Uncle Joe lost everything. I’m never starting a business. Others will go, I’m going to start a business and I’m going to make it work.

[00:28:50] In your case, Victor, you’re starting a business, but you’re also saying, maybe it works. Maybe not. I’ll figure it out. Now, guess what? If you were 25 years old as you are and you were solo, independent, that’s fine. You probably would figure it out. The thing is, you are living together with somebody who’s 39 years old and who has said she wants– what? 

[00:29:17] Victor: I need to learn new ways and not stay stuck in the same old me.

[00:29:26] Ramit: So what would that look like?

[00:29:29] Victor: I found a job, and I’m going to be working during the day. And then in the afternoons, where my gym is the most full, I will be making more because the business that I am in, I’m going to be working as a security in school. So I’m going to talk to all the Latino parents and try to get all their kids from my school into my gym and make more money.

[00:29:59] Ramit: Okay. All right. That sounds like plan. What do you think about that, Mindy?

[00:30:05] Mindy: I like it, and the reason I like it is because he went back to having some kind of steady income. So at least at the minimum, we know that he has his paychecks coming in from the security job and then everything from the business, whether it’s a slow month or whatever, then that could be extra.

[00:30:27] Ramit: Let’s fast forward six months, 12 months. You’re making 60, 70, 90k when you combine everything approximately. What’s it actually going to take for you both to feel like a team?

[00:30:43] Mindy: That’s exactly the question I ask myself. I want to be on the same page. I want to work as a team. I want to build something together. I feel like I’m very independent, and I always have in the back of my mind, like, just take care of yourself. As long as I’m good, I’ll be fine.

[00:31:09] Because anything can happen, but I know we’re going to be together for a very long time, hopefully, until we die. I want to start thinking about, what does our future could look like? What would make him happy? What would make me happy?

[00:31:32] Ramit: If you had a magic wand for your own life, let’s just start with yourself first, what would you each want in your life? What would your Rich Life be? Victor?

[00:31:45] Victor: Mine will be being able to, I feel like, pursue my career as a boxer, have enough money to cover everything and cover my career because an athlete is a whole business. And I think I’m getting old, so I don’t know if it’s going to happen. That’s why I opened a gym, so I can do it for other people.

[00:32:12] And have time for Mindy and going on vacation so often when she wants to go because she loves to travel. And I’m more a routine guy, so I would like to have a couple of gyms, have my routine, here and there. Whenever like I want, just go for a flight with her.

[00:32:35] Mindy: I love to travel, like he said. I would ideally travel at least four or five times a year. Every month or two I want to be on a plane. Ideally I’d love to just see the world and soak it all in. I also want to make my own schedule in terms of work. And then when I want to take a vacation, I can take one and not worry that I’ll have the money in the bank. I can just pick where I want to go and go and not have to worry about anything. Just know that I can afford whatever I want to do.

[00:33:15] Ramit: Okay. I like it. What about together?

[00:33:19] Mindy: I would like to travel together, even though he doesn’t quite like traveling that much because I feel like he just wants to come back so badly and just be in his routine. I’m comfortable. I don’t think we have any plans to buy a house. Maybe eventually buy a house in Puerto Rico.

[00:33:38] Victor: Just having a simple life, at least for me. Having a simple life, a routine, and everything is covered up. I don’t have to stress about anything, and just do my thing.

[00:33:50] Ramit: Would you agree, Mindy? Do you want a simple life?

[00:33:54] Mindy: I don’t want a simple life.

[00:33:56] Ramit: That to me, is the issue.

[00:34:01] Mindy: Yeah.

[00:34:02] Ramit: You want a simple life, Victor, and I believe you. I believe you. You’re like, I don’t need anything fancy. I don’t want to travel that much. I want a simple life. What’s going on, Mindy? I notice you looking down. What are you thinking right now?

[00:34:17] Mindy: I get bored. I don’t like routine. I like the comfort of a routine, but I’m a Gemini. I want to explore. I want to be out there.

[00:34:26] Ramit: It’s so much better, as you know, when you are both rowing in the same direction versus both of you going opposite directions. So my question is, is it possible for you to go in the same directions or not?

[00:34:39] Mindy: I think it is.

[00:34:41] Ramit: Okay. How?

[00:34:42] Victor: I think it is too.

[00:34:43] Ramit: How? Tell me.

[00:34:45] Mindy: I like the consistency that Victor has and offers me. He grounds me. I’m all over the place. I want to do everything and anything. And he helps me just reel it in and just focus. And I look at him as an example. He’s so content with just the littlest things. And although that’s not what I want for myself, I appreciate the little things. But I have that urge inside of me to just want to do more for myself.

[00:35:26] Ramit: What do you wish he understood about money, and what do you wish he did differently when it comes to money?

[00:35:34] Mindy: I wish he spent more time thinking about money and writing it down on paper, analyzing, knowing his numbers. And I wish he, I guess, valued more of the things that I value. He says, oh, I want to make all this money, but why do you want to make it? He’s not even sure why he wants to make it, I feel. And I feel like he’s doing it for me, and that’s not the reason to do something, is for himself.

[00:36:26] Ramit: What’s up? Is there gender things for Puerto Rican men, Victor? Are you supposed to be the higher earner?

[00:36:34] Victor: Maybe it’s not about a Puerto Rican thing. It’s just more about me wanting to do something for my wife. Being able to afford everything so she can just like relax, which I know she doesn’t want to, but at least in the back of her head, know that she’s safe. I feel like that’s why I want to earn more money.

[00:37:06] Ramit: We all grow up with these gender roles. I get it. At the same time, it also makes me sad because I think you’re more than a provider. I can see it on Mindy’s face. Mindy, what are you feeling right now? She’s taking a second to use some tissues. Take your time, Mindy.

[00:37:29] Mindy: That makes me sad. That makes me really sad. He only thinks of himself as like what he can provide and how much money he can bring to the table. But it’s not even about that. It’s so much more. That’s the least important thing that you offer. He’s such an amazing human being. He’s always happy. He’s always there to help his friends and anybody who needs it, no matter how tired he is. He’s just a wonderful person to be around. And that’s why we’ve been together this long.

[00:38:07] Victor: But it’s crazy that I still feel like it’s not enough.

[00:38:12] Ramit: I know. Isn’t that crazy? It’s like this thing that’s inside of you and you can hear Mindy saying it over and she’s crying. And you’re still like, oh, that’s so nice. And I need to make more money. But let’s also remember, Mindy, I think you also said you’d like to have safety and security, and you also said you don’t think that 176,000-dollar household income combined is enough. Is there a future where the two of you are comfortable that Mindy earns five, six times what Victor earns and you’re both okay with that?

[00:38:57] Victor: I feel like she deserves more, and she can make way more. It’s just like, I want to make more. I just want to make more. I want to provide.

[00:39:11] Ramit: Great. But what Mindy is looking for is more than just income. It is you being a partner in the relationship, not necessarily 50-50 earnings. It’s not that. It’s getting educated about money because there’s a whole language you don’t understand about money right now and you can understand it.

[00:39:34] It’s totally achievable. It’s getting curious about money and saying like, hey, the way I grew up, money comes, money goes. That was the last chapter of my life. But for this chapter, this unit, this family we’re building, I want to approach it differently. How do other people approach it? How do different people in different parts of life approach it?

[00:39:56] It’s getting curious. It’s saying, tell me what your dreams are. And it’s talking about money and dreams together. So the money part, sure. Earn a little bit more. I think you should, but that’s not what she’s actually asking for. I don’t think Mindy’s saying you have to be all in.

[00:40:17] In fact, I don’t think almost anybody wants to be all in with personal finance. You have to be a real freak to want to do that. But getting 85% of the way there means read a couple books, listen to the occasional podcast, talk about money every couple of weeks in a healthy meeting where you both know what time you’re going to talk. That’s 85% of the way there. What do you think about that? Could you do that, Victor?

[00:40:46] Victor: Yeah. For sure. 100%.

[00:40:48] Ramit: If she got hit by a bus, you need to know how your money works. Right now, that wouldn’t happen. You’d be in trouble if that happened right now.

[00:40:58] Victor: Yeah. 1,000%.

[Narration]

[00:41:00] Ramit: The real elephant in the room is that they want different things. He wants a simple life. She explicitly does not want a simple life. She wants to travel. He doesn’t. I don’t know if that can be reconciled. But rather than tackling that, that major real issue, they’ve talked in circles about things like, maybe I’ll feel better when I have $300,000.

[00:41:29] Maybe these two are just in different places in life. Or maybe they see money differently and they’ll see it differently forever. But I personally think it’s important to tackle the real issue, not to dance around it. So can they get on the same page?

[00:41:45] We’ll find out after this short break

[00:41:48] Now back to our conversation.

[Interview]

[00:41:50] Ramit: Mindy, the question for you is, what are your expectations, and what happens if your expectations are not met?

[00:41:57] Mindy: I don’t like to have expectations because I don’t want to be disappointed. So I try not to expect much. I put it on myself and I just raise the bar even higher for myself because it’s like I just don’t want to trust that someone can meet that expectation or demand that someone meets that expectation. 

[00:42:26] Ramit: What do you think about that as you say it out loud? 

[00:42:29] Mindy: It’s crazy. I don’t know. I guess I should really think about that because maybe I should demand. But then what are the consequences?

[00:42:44] Ramit: You tell me.

[00:42:48] Mindy: I don’t know. The only consequence that I can think of is that we don’t end up together if this doesn’t resolve itself. Or that we can’t be together as a team, not so much as a couple. Love is great and all, but it can only take you so far. I keep talking about this. I want to be a functioning team. And I tell him all the time, like step up your game because I don’t want to be carrying your weight. We’re a team. We got to move forward.

[00:43:23] Ramit: And does that ever work?

[00:43:26] Mindy: No, it hasn’t really. Yeah.

[00:43:32] Ramit: I like that you had the insight to recognize that you don’t set expectations because you’re afraid to be disappointed. Instead, you take it on yourself. And that leads to an ever-spiraling difference in where the two of you are. I see how both of you view money and yourselves, and I see that if you want to be a team, you could be. You really could be.

[00:44:01] It does not mean you have to both earn the same amount of income. That’s not the case. I never went to my wife and said, I expect you to earn the same money I do. I never said that. But I did have expectations, and those expectations were things like, we’re both going to be involved in the finances.

[00:44:24] You’re going to know a lot about money because one day if I get hit by a bus, I want you to be extremely savvy with money. I need you to be a good steward of our money. I want to have a partner because sometimes I need help. And it’s honestly just more fun. So I need us to be together on this. We’re going to be talking about it. We’re going to be sharing some of the responsibilities.

[00:44:53] And those were my expectations. It took a lot of work for my wife. She had to learn a lot, and she had to work on her own money psychology. And then I had to learn how to communicate more effectively. This went on for years. Still sometimes we totally disagree about it. But it has come a long way where if something happened to me, I know she would be totally good with the finances.

[00:45:24] Mindy: That’s literally how I’ve been feeling. I just haven’t been able to say it in words. I feel like I’m carrying most of the weight when it comes to money and being on track, knowing when to pay bills. And I’m trying to control everything because I feel out of control myself.

[00:45:44] Ramit: You said it yourself, love sometimes is not enough. It’s like, hey, we’re putting a business, partnership together.

[00:45:51] Mindy: Right.

[00:45:52] Ramit: Anyone who’s listening, who’s basically not from India, Lebanon, anywhere, they’re like, what the fuck is this guy talking about? A business relationship? So sick. So unromantic. What about Cinderella? Have you ever heard of a fucking– it’s not a prince. It is the business of running a household. What if we have to buy a house? What if somebody gets sick? What if somebody dies, taking care of elderly parents? That is a business, and we need to be pragmatic about it. You agree, Mindy?

[00:46:26] Mindy: 100%.

[00:46:27] Ramit: All right. Let’s be pragmatic right now then. You’ve been beating your head against the wall for six years trying to control how he does certain things. Has it worked?

[00:46:35] Mindy: No.

[00:46:35] Ramit: The reason that you are not willing to loosen control and to be clear about expectations is that you know if you actually set expectations, there’s a risk that he might not meet them. And then the question is, what are you going to do about it?

[00:46:53] Mindy: I don’t know what the answer is. Is it breaking up because the business partnership didn’t work? It just doesn’t make sense to me.

[00:47:04] Ramit: Why?

[00:47:07] Mindy: Because at the end of the day, there’s more to it. It’s not all about money.

[Narration]

[00:47:15] Ramit: This is the hardest conversation to have with couples, when it’s clear that they don’t see money the same, and they might never see it the same way. And at that point, the only thing to do is to help them decide what they want in their Rich Life and to set expectations. If you fit into my vision, amazing.

[00:47:38] But if not, it doesn’t make you a bad person, but maybe we’re just not the right fit. And I have to tell you, this is really hard to hear. I think a lot of us have been in relationships where we know it might not be a fit, but we don’t want to talk about that difficult conversation. So we dance around it. Like how Mindy is saying she wants him to be a partner. She wants him to make more money.

[00:48:01] But then she also says, it’s not all about money, and I don’t want to break up. She’s confused. Victor’s confused. I’m confused. But I also know that this is human nature. We don’t always know what we want. We don’t always operate on a logical basis from a spreadsheet. So I have to say, I have a lot of compassion for both of them. I hope you do too.

[Interview]

[00:48:23] Victor: I feel secure in one part, but then in the other, I feel insecure, where it’s like, I don’t know how much money I have to make. I don’t know how much experience I have to get. I don’t know how much.

[00:48:40] Mindy: It’s not about how much money, but it’s definitely about how much effort and how much willingness you have to learn these things. And I can’t hold your hand. You need to just know that this is what you need to do.

[00:49:01] Ramit: The question is, if this continues, this dynamic you have between the two of you for the next 20, 30, 40 years, will you be okay with it?

[00:49:11] Mindy: Absolutely not.

[00:49:12] Ramit: Sometimes we have set expectations first just for us, because it sends a signal. I have high expectations. I’m worth it. And then the people around us, sometimes they meet those expectations and sometimes they don’t. I’m not saying anybody has to kick anybody to the curb.

[00:49:36] That’s not the point of this. I want you to have a really healthy relationship around money. But I can tell you what doesn’t work, is trying to control your partner, is using phrases like step up, is giving mixed messages like, it’s not about the money, but also I need you to earn more money. All these things are the opposite of just setting a clear expectation and then seeing if the person lives up to it or not, but knowing if they don’t, what are you willing to do about it?

[00:50:09] Victor: What do you want from me, Habibti?

[00:50:15] Mindy: I want a partner who’s there by my side. Not behind me, not in front of me, by my side. I guess what I want is for you to be proactive about your finances, be in control of what you’re making, what your expenses are, especially that you have a business, commit to watching one podcast a week and reading the book.

[00:50:54] And then I want also to have at least once a month meetings about how does the month look like for us? Where do we need help? Where do we need support from each other? Those are things that I feel like I would want you to commit to.

[00:51:22] Victor: Okay. I promise I will do my best.

[00:51:26] Mindy: What does your best look like?

[00:51:28] Victor: I’m going to read the book. And I’m not just going to read it to read it. Obviously, I’m going to try to understand it, and I’m going to try to understand everything when it comes to my finances.

[00:51:46] Ramit: I’ll be pretty direct here with some specific suggestions. If you’re running a business in a household, then it’s your responsibility to report regularly on your business finances. These are the kind of things that are important to a romantic partner because it affects your household finances.

[00:52:05] Another thing that I think is important is that the two of you discuss who’s tracking certain numbers. If you have the CSP, there’s certain numbers that need to be hit, like how much you’re spending on groceries, etc. Fortunately, you have room to play with, but who’s actually tracking the amount of eating out?

[00:52:24] Right now I bet it’s nobody. No one’s really keeping track of it. Shouldn’t that be somebody’s job, probably Victor’s, to take some of that load off? Now, if he does all these things, fantastic. That means more responsibility, more sharing, celebrate, all that stuff. If not, then what are y’all going to do? Mindy’s been sitting there saying, please, please, for the last six years. It doesn’t work. Sometimes boundaries are the only thing that works.

[00:52:53] Victor: I feel like I can help her in so many ways, and I try to help her as much as I can.

[00:53:03] Ramit: You’re not helping in the ways that she wants to be helped.

[00:53:06] Victor: That’s my mistake.

[00:53:07] Mindy: I literally feel like I’m doing this on my own.

[00:53:11] Ramit: You are.

[00:53:11] Mindy: I don’t have any help.

[00:53:13] Ramit: Well, you’re doing it on your own in part because the two of you have not built an effective strategy to work together. You’re not teammates. And one of you is getting better and better, and the other one is doing their own thing, trying to get better, but doing it in their own way, not communicating, and you’re getting further and further apart.

[00:53:37] And that’s why at a certain point, you’re like, I’m just doing this on my own. It’s not a healthy financial foundation. So first thing is you need to decide what’s important to you. And the consequences could be anything from you need to track that again. I need these numbers by tomorrow.

[00:53:56] They could start to increase by like, hey, I don’t think we should live together because this is not working for me the way it is. And then finally, if it’s not working and you decide like, hey, part of my Rich Life is knowing that I have a partner who’s in it. We can’t be together anymore. That’s the final option. What’s going to happen in two months when your income stops, Mindy?

[00:54:19] Mindy: I have my emergency fund. I’m going to use some of it.

[00:54:26] Ramit: Your emergency fund will currently last you about five months. What then?

[00:54:33] Mindy: I don’t know. I want to take this time to just think about what I really want to do for work and maybe consulting, try to find a way to make money and I’ll have a schedule that I’m happy about.

[00:55:04] Ramit: Can I tell you what I think a really healthy relationship with money would have said to me?

[00:55:13] Mindy: Okay.

[00:55:14] Ramit: They would have said, I’m a little nervous about going from my income to potentially not having a job. I feel pretty confident it might take a while, but I know that my partner is here, and he’s agreed to take on a lot of the financial weight that I’ve been carrying for a while. We’ve already talked about it. Here’s how he’s going to do it. And at certain times in our lives, I’m going to earn more. At certain times, he’s going to earn more, and we’re both willing to be partners in this life together. Did I hear that at all?

[00:55:58] Mindy: No.

[00:55:58] Victor: No.

[00:55:59] Ramit: What did I hear?

[00:56:01] Victor: Me, me, me.

[00:56:03] Ramit: Almost as if you two are not in a relationship.

[00:56:05] Victor: Yeah.

[00:56:07] Mindy: I know it’s a problem.

[00:56:09] Victor: And that’s why I’m trying to step up my business. Got a job.

[00:56:20] Ramit: I like that. I like that you got a job. I like that you already have planned ahead. Victor, as a guy, I think a lot of times we are not taught about certain communication techniques. So we’re like, my job is a provider. I’m going to provide. And that’s all that needs to happen. I fucking did what I’m supposed to do. Check. Leave me alone. And then the man always goes into his fucking man– I hate man caves.

[00:56:44] Anyway, so Victor, you did this whole thing about getting a job, about, X, Y, Z. But did you say to Mindy, Mindy, I know that you’ve mentioned your employment is ending. I know that your income is going to go away for a while. I trust you’re going to get another job. That’s going to happen. But in the meantime, here’s how much I’m going to be making. And I want you to know that that’s going to us. That’s for us. And that’s because I know that I have to take on more load right now. I’m happy to do it. Have you said that?

[00:57:19] Victor: No, I haven’t. And we should totally talk more about it. We should totally talk more about the money. And I have to get comfortable with it and stop being defensive or feeling bad because I make way less or whatever.

[00:57:37] Mindy: You haven’t even expressed the fact that you’ve got the job so that I can feel more secure. I feel like I’m just on my own. What I want is for you to show up to the conversation prepared, meaning have your numbers ready. If I ask you, how much are you going to make this month? How much are you going to plan on making next month? Have those numbers ready so that we can plan ahead. And okay, in October, I’m losing my job. So what does November look like for us? We should plan from now.

[00:58:15] Ramit: Great job, Mindy, expressing what you need. I love that. Love that. That is crystal clear specificity. I need you to show up prepared. One little twist I want to offer is you should not be asking questions about how much he’s making because what does that do? What kind of dynamic does that set? You’re the mom and he’s the little boy. You got to change that dynamic.

[00:58:41] This is a professional fucking organization. It’s not mom asking questions of a little boy. No way. We are professionals operating at a high level. If you want to change the way that you interact with money, you’ve got to start respecting money. We got to stop using phrases like we’ll figure it out. We’ll figure it out is just code for, I don’t want to deal with this right now. Somebody someday at some point in time will come up with the answer but it’s not going to be me. Fuck that.

[00:59:13] I want to know what’s going on with my money, not because I’m obsessed with money, not because I hoard money, because money is one of the foundational elements in a relationship. It allows you to live where you live, eat what you eat, travel where you’re going to travel, take care of each other when you get sick. Before we wrap up tonight, I just want to make sure you feel like you had every chance to ask any questions of me.

[00:59:34] Mindy: My questions coming in were, should we combine our finances? Because right now we’re so disconnected.

[00:59:45] Ramit: No. You two have not earned the trust to combine your finances. This is not a functioning relationship with money right now.

[00:59:55] Mindy: So how do we take the steps to get there?

[01:00:02] Ramit: You need to decide, first of all, what would it take for you to both feel good about money? And what would it take for you to have a functioning relationship around money? It means a healthy relationship. That’s where you both have skin in the game, where you both feel confident, comfortable, where you’re both taking on certain things and contributing, not just financially, but also time and energy.

[01:00:30] You need to create some milestones to get there. If that happens, we will be in the place to be able to run calculations like, are we going to have enough? How much do we need to be investing for retirement? Your CSP looks pretty good. It really looks pretty healthy. Couple of tweaks. If it were up to me, I would be saving a lot more right now because you’re coming into a season where your income is going to drop.

[01:00:56] I would definitely cut your guilt-free spending by a lot. I would probably make that Victor’s responsibility. I would take all that money, all this vacation money, all the shopping money, and I would be putting it into an emergency fund and I would be filling that thing up with thousands of dollars every single month right now, thousands. Because winter is coming.

[01:01:19] Mindy: Yeah.

[01:01:21] Ramit: And I would never want to be getting down to the last of my emergency fund. If you’re living together, there are certain relationship questions. Are you going to get married? I think those are questions that you’d want to think about before you combine finances. Do you guys know?

[01:01:41] Mindy: Well, marriage to me is like a business transaction.

[01:01:44] Ramit: Okay.

[01:01:45] Mindy: It’s like, do I want to enter a business partnership with Victor?

[01:01:49] Ramit: Well, I wouldn’t right now.

[01:01:50] Mindy: I don’t. That’s why we’re not married.

[01:01:53] Ramit: Really? Because of the money?

[01:01:55] Mindy: Yeah.

[01:01:56] Ramit: Don’t you think that’s important? That is the boundary. It’s like, we’re not getting married if we can’t get our money together. And if we’re not getting married, then what are we doing?

[01:02:07] Mindy: Right.

[01:02:07] Victor: Mm-hmm.

[01:02:09] Ramit: Wait. I’m surprised you’re just agreeing with me. So then Mindy, what’s the natural conclusion of that?

[01:02:16] Mindy: I don’t know. I’m just waiting to see.

[01:02:21] Ramit: Why are you so patient with your own life? Why not get impatient? In my opinion, it’s either like, we’re on the path to getting married, if that’s what you want. And if so, we need to set a timeline, and here’s what needs to happen before that, or we’re not. And we probably need to call the ball on this relationship. Now, again, I’m not a relationship therapist.

[01:02:49] That’s totally up to you. You should probably both talk to therapists, maybe a couples therapist. I’d highly recommend. But I’m just trying to get you to both look at the stakes here. Get impatient. Don’t just sit around and wait. Nobody’s going to change this in your life, except for you two. Okay?

[01:03:06] Victor: I’m impatient.

[01:03:06] Ramit: You are?

[01:03:07] Victor: I am, for sure. I want to fucking make it.

[01:03:12] Ramit: Well, I guess it will be your job to write down what you think needs to happen in your relationship, and then you can check in with her and you can see and then you can execute on it. And that’ll be a good start.

[01:03:27] Ramit: Oh wow. That really caught me off guard. Let’s jump right to their follow-ups and hear what they have to say.

[01:03:36] Mindy: Hi, Ramit. As uncomfortable as it was to have that conversation, it really got me out of my comfort zone, and I learned that it’s not so scary to talk about money. What surprised me is that there’s so much of our past and emotions attached to our money behaviors right now. And unpacking that was definitely something huge.

[01:04:14] You really also just helped us get to the root of our problem as a couple and as a partnership. We’re going to start small and see where that takes us. I already see the changes happening with Victor, which is great. Makes me happy. And that’s about it.

[01:04:36] Victor: Hi, Ramit. I learned a lot from this podcast. I learned about how the dynamic in our relationship was. It wasn’t working. The fact that it was very hard for me to talk about money, now it’s better. I feel a little bit more secure talking about money. I learned that having a plan and following it is the way to do it. It was a great opportunity for me and for Mindy. It is great for our relationship, so thanks.

[01:05:18] Ramit: Candidly, I’m not satisfied with those follow-ups. There are no specifics, no timelines, no boundaries, or even expectations. Maybe Mindy and Victor are simply at different places in their life. Maybe they see money differently, or maybe they’re going to change and become partners, true teammates, which would be my dream for them.

[01:05:38] But the main lesson I want you to take away is this: get impatient with your life. If you have a vision of a Rich Life, tell your partner what it is. Ask them what theirs is. If they’re not willing to share or if they’re not willing to take on the responsibility of being a financial teammate, don’t give up. Use the tools in my journal and my upcoming book.

[01:06:02] But at a certain point, you have to decide what your boundaries are and what role you expect a partner to play in your Rich Life. I want to thank Mindy and Victor for coming on my show and being so open and honest. I appreciate you, and I appreciate every guest who comes on here and every one of the members of our audience listening and watching for treating our guests with respect and learning from them.

[01:06:29] Mindy: Hey, Ramit. So it’s been about a month since filming, and we are doing great. We’ve implemented weekly meetings. So what we do in those meetings is talk about finances, of course, and how we can cut down on expenses like going out to eat and so on. We plan a menu for the week, which has been exciting for us, so it helps us just reconnect and stay on task.

[01:06:55] We’ve been doing really good with that. We’ve been coming prepared to our meetings as well. So Victor, knowing his numbers really helps me figure out my numbers and how we can work together. He’s also significantly increased his income, which is great because I’m going to be losing mine soon.

[01:07:17] But I still plan on doing some consulting and things like that on the side just so I’m not at zero. I’m excited, and I feel like you’ve given us the tools that we need to just continue our partnership and work together. So yeah, thank you so much.

[01:07:37] Victor: Hey, Ramit. I wanted to say thank you. It was very nice to be in your podcast. I feel like I learned a lot. The dynamic in the household is way better with Mindy and me. We’re doing meetings about our money situation. Overall, it was a great experience for me. I learned a lot. And yeah, I just want to learn more. So thank you for having us, and that’s it. Thanks.