Episode 205. “I’ve been homeless before…I’m terrified to spend money”

Jennifer (37) and Steve (41) have been dating for over five years, but they’ve never spent more than $100 on a shared purchase.

Jennifer is a self-made business owner with a clear vision for the future, while Steve is cautious, financially conservative, and still haunted by a turbulent past that included losing both parents and living out of his car. Despite a solid income and nearly $200,000 in savings, Steve can’t shake the fear of financial collapse. Jennifer, meanwhile, is growing resentful. She wants a partner who dreams big and makes bold moves with her—not someone who second-guesses a $10 purchase.

Can they confront the past, align on a shared vision for their future, and finally start acting like teammates?

This episode is brought to you by:

ZocDoc | Download the ZocDoc app for FREE at https://zocdoc.com/ramit then find and book a top-rated doctor today.

Superhuman | Get a free month of lightning fast email at https://try.sprh.mn/ramitsethi.

Aura Frames | Use promo code RAMIT to get $35 off the best-selling Carver Mat frames at https://auraframes.com.

Fabric by Gerber Life | Join the thousands of parents who trust Fabric to protect their family. Apply today in just minutes at https://meetfabric.com/ramit.

Next Level Wardrobe | Take their free styling quiz and elevate your style at https://nextlevelwardrobe.com/ramit.

Links mentioned in this episode 

Order my new book: Money for Couples 

Transcript 

Download the full transcript PDF 

[00:00:00] Steve: I have a scarcity mindset when it comes to money, because I've lived in a car. I've had only $5 to my name. I know what it's like to couch surf. Six months after my dad passed away, they basically were just like, "No wonder why your dad passed away because of how bad you guys are."

[00:00:15] Ramit: What the [Bleep]? They said this?

[00:00:16] Steve: I'm careful.

[00:00:17] Jennifer: I'm a doer. And it's far when you're in a relationship, when your partner is very different. We've never purchased anything more than $100 together.

[00:00:28] Ramit: You're basically playing a type of game. I want him to get involved. You already know he's not going to engage with the questions. So you're basically setting him up to fail, and you're setting yourself up to be resentful.

[00:00:39] All right. I'm looking at Jennifer and Steve's CSP. They are 37 and 41 years old. $346,000 of assets, $116,000 of investments, $193,000 in savings, and $319,000 of debt. Total net worth, 335. Gross monthly income, $13,000. Fixed costs are only 43%. Investments are at 8%. Savings at 37%. Wow. Guilt-free spending's at 11%. It says it's $1,187 a month. I suspect they just don't really know. Maybe they spend a little bit more. They easily could.

[00:01:17] So the thing that's interesting about this is Jennifer writes in her application, she's extremely frustrated because Steve is stuck. He has all this money sitting in savings and he won't do anything with it. I got to find out what's going on. This is why I love what I do, because I could see the numbers here. I have some questions, but in order to figure out what's going on, I really need to get their actual story.

[Interview]

[00:01:40] Ramit: Jennifer, on your application, you wrote, "He is afraid to make big life decisions and have his savings go down. We aren't engaged even though we are happy and committed because of the mindset. He hasn't made any money moves, and it will lead to a sad future for us." What do you mean by that?

[00:02:04] Jennifer: I always tell him, "You're going to end up retiring and working at Publix if you don't make decisions now." Because it's already been a while.

[00:02:14] Ramit: What do you mean by that?

[00:02:16] Jennifer: Not having a retirement, not making big moves in life for fear that the amount that he sees in the bank account will go down. Things that will actually better his life and our life together and give us a future.

[00:02:30] Steve: Whenever we talk about money, that scare comes up, where she'll say something like, you got to do this or that, and if not, then this is your future, which would be the working at a grocery store at 80, 90 years old and not having retirement.

[00:02:46] Jennifer: Yeah. Basically, it symbolizes more than like the grocery store. You're not going to be able to retire. You're not to be able to rest, enjoy more.

[00:02:54] Ramit: And how long have you been using this example?

[00:02:57] Jennifer: Probably a year. 

[00:03:00] Ramit: Does it work?

[00:03:01] Jennifer: No.

[00:03:02] Ramit: Oh, how come you keep using it then?

[00:03:05] Jennifer: I think it just keeps popping up.

[00:03:09] Ramit: Steve, are you indecisive?

[00:03:11] Steve: I'm careful, sometimes to a fault. And I like to know all the details. And then once I know the details, I can make an informed decision. When it comes to finances, I like to understand, how does this work? So that takes me longer to make those money decisions.

[00:03:28] Ramit: Okay. Great. Is there something that has brought you here, Jennifer, to apply?

[00:03:34] Jennifer: I saw your show and I saw how you were able to just help all these people take big steps and live life to the fullest together.

[00:03:45] Ramit: Big steps means what?

[00:03:47] Jennifer: You're going to laugh. What are they called? Like storage bins. Storage bins for me, six months.

[00:03:54] Ramit: What happened with the storage bins?

[00:03:56] Jennifer: So I said, "Babe, we still got to get some storage bins. I got stuff in bags. I got stuff that the lids broken. I can't even put them. It's a tiny little shed. I've been more than patient." And it's just always like, no, we don't need that. And I hear that all the time, no matter how small. And it's a recurring issue.

[00:04:17] Ramit: When you hear the phrase, "We don't need that," from Steve, what do you hear?

[00:04:24] Jennifer: I hear, "I just don't give a damn. Why am I going to spend money on this? Why do I care?" And I'm thinking, this is our home. This is for our convenience. Things that just bring each other joy. Who cares? They're freaking 10-dollar bins. Why are we arguing over this?

[00:04:39] Ramit: Steve, can I check in with you? What happened with the bin conversation?

[00:04:44] Steve: We were having a conversation about, yeah, we need bins. What I had said to her was, "There's nothing wrong with the bins. They're not snapping in half. They're not deteriorated and falling apart." I could do the bins now, but then tomorrow it's the next thing.

[00:05:02] It's always the next thing that we need. I've been really hard, fast on the bins just because I know that if I just pacify the situation, say, "Yeah, sure. Here you go. Yeah, sure. Yeah, sure. Yeah, sure." Then it'll be the next thing. And it'll be, "Oh, we need this. We need that."

[00:05:18] Ramit: What exactly would the next thing be?

[00:05:21] Steve: It could be furniture. It could be a bread maker. It could be a variety of things that she just really like, "Oh, that'd be great. Let's have that."

[00:05:30] Ramit: And if that was the case, if you said okay to the bins, 40 bucks or however much, and then the next thing she comes back with is, "We need a new couch." Let's just assume that you said yes to all of those things. What would happen? What are the negative effects that you're protecting yourself and her from?

[00:05:52] Steve: I like things to be like, hey, this year, let's get to this point. If we need three, four things, let's put that in for this year and we can grab those three or four things. But if it's just a running list that keeps going, then it's like, is this a need? Is this a want? It seems like it's a want. This isn't broken. So you start to analyze it a little bit more.

[00:06:15] Ramit: I'm a little surprised. I'm surprised because from reading your application, it seems like you only very recently got engaged with your personal finances. Is that accurate?

[00:06:28] Steve: Mostly yes. I've kept it very simple. Yeah.

[00:06:31] Ramit: And so I'm surprised because you're presenting this strong philosophy on money. But I'm wondering how connected are you with your actual financial details?

[00:06:43] Steve: I do know my numbers.

[00:06:46] Ramit: That's awesome. Are you afraid you're going to run out of money?

[00:06:49] Steve: Oh, I'm always afraid I'm going to run out of money.

[00:06:51] Ramit: How can that be if you know your numbers?

[00:06:54] Steve: Because I know at some point, even if I do say, "Yes, let's do this." There'll be a point where I go, "Oh, I can't do that anymore. I'm going to run out, and I'm going to be broke."

[00:07:10] Ramit: Do you have a visual image of what broke means to you?

[00:07:14] Steve: Yes. It's $5 to my name, sleeping in a car.

[00:07:18] Ramit: You've been there.

[00:07:19] Steve: I've been there, yes.

[00:07:21] Ramit: Okay. Wow. The fact that you've been there means you have that image. And a lot of people I talk to who have been literally living in their car, when they are out of that situation, the first promise they make to themselves is, I'm never going back there. Did you do that?

[00:07:37] Steve: I did that. 

[00:07:38] Ramit: Jennifer, I'm struck by this conversation about storage bins. I love how specific it is, and I think it's probably a metaphor for other conversations in your relationship. So you've had this conversation multiple times. Here's my question for you, Jennifer. Why are you asking him if you should get new storage bins?

[00:08:00] Jennifer: One, because certain things I need to know that he is going to be a team player for the things he finds boring, because we're adults. There's going to be a lot of boring ish we buy. This is reality. And for him, this is very new. Two, because if we are going to be married, which is the goal, this is the boring ish that comes up all the time.

[00:08:26] And three, because I have a certain way of lifestyle. I believe in comfort, having the things that you need. Also some wants, if you can afford it. I always tell him that you deserve good things. You don't have to be in this famish mindset all the time. It's annoying.

[00:08:44] I don't even ask for a lot. Trust me. We do 50-50 together as a couple. Very new for me. Very different as a Colombian American, let me tell you. And still, we're going to argue over these little money things? I just don't get it.

[00:09:00] Ramit: Okay. Jennifer, what if you simply did not have to ask Steve if you could get new bins?

[00:09:09] Jennifer: I did that for years. I can afford all of this. If I want something, I would buy it all the time. But after three years of living together, I was like, "I'm going to stop." I said, "Why is he not being a part of these decisions?" This is where we live. These are our homes. These should be our decisions. Even if it's a dollar sometimes, I need to know that he has a say and that he's in this as a team.

[00:09:32] Ramit: Did it work?

[00:09:33] Jennifer: No, it's a fight every time.

[00:09:36] Ramit: Right. So you're asking him questions. "Hey, should we get this? I think we need that." And then his response typically is what?

[00:09:43] Jennifer: We don't need it. I don't got it.

[00:09:45] Ramit: Steve, you agree with that?

[00:09:47] Steve: Without the, I don't got it, yeah. I would mostly lead with we don't need it.

[00:09:43] Jennifer: Ah! Lies.

[00:09:51] Ramit: We don't need it. What's the, "I don't got it."? What is that? I don't have enough money?

[00:09:55] Steve: Yeah, that's what she's indicating. What it comes down to is we don't need it. What we have is working.

[00:10:02] Ramit: Steve, can I ask you a question? What if you just keep going on the way you've been going on? Your place looks beautiful, from what I can see. Sure, you have a nice life. You could theoretically go on the way you go on. Maybe you get engaged, maybe not. Whatever. It's up to you. But what would happen if you just keep this up for the next 20 years?

[00:10:21] Jennifer: Sadness. It'll just get tiring. You'll just feel exhausted over these same patterns.

[00:10:28] Ramit: Okay. Steve?

[00:10:30] Steve: I would probably just get tired of hearing about it overall, and then I would say, "All right, just do it." Both of us will put money to it, and then that's the end of that.

[00:10:38] Ramit: Okay. It's very interesting. I really like hearing your story, and I love these specific examples. It really helps me understand what's going on in the house. If you had to zoom out and you were to look at this conversation from above, what would you say is going on right now?

[00:10:55] Steve: We come from two different mindsets as it pertains to money and how we view money.

[00:11:02] Jennifer: I think what's going on is an issue with commitment. We know we're each other's person. It's not like that. We're not hanging on by a threat or anything. We're not backup couple. But it's like one person has been married, has done it, doesn't have too much fear. Another person is fearful of all the big things. We're arguing over bins, and it's been five years. Imagine something serious like a hospital bill. We need to be prepared. Time is running out. We need to just grow up. That's where I'm at.

[00:11:31] Ramit: Steve, do you agree with that?

[00:11:33] Steve: To an extent, I do agree with that, but I don't think it's a commitment issue. I think it's a where we are in life right now. For example, if we were engaged, if we were married, this is all a very different thing. We'd be joining our accounts together. If she wants something, then, okay, there it is.

[00:11:52] We are not in that position right now. And so that being said, it does take like, "Hey, what do you think about the bins?" I don't really find it to be that big of a deal, and that's where we are, sort of separated still, but we are looking to merge lives.

[00:12:13] Ramit: It sounds like there's a catch 22 here. It sounds like, Steve, you're saying if we had joint finances, if we were engaged or married, we wouldn't be really talking about these bin questions because it would be our money. But Jennifer, you're saying, in order for us to get to our money, I need to know that we can have these conversations effectively now.

[00:12:32] Jennifer: Yes, for sure.

[00:12:34] Ramit: You both see that?

[00:12:35] Steve: Yes.

[00:12:37] Ramit: Knowing that dynamic, it's like you've both taken a piece of a rope and you've pulled it on each end and the knot is getting tighter. What's the solution here? It's probably not to keep pulling it.

[00:12:48] Steve: For me, I would probably say that the solution is understanding each other and coming to some concession on both sides.

[00:12:56] Ramit: I like that. Okay. And then, Jennifer, what do you think?

[00:13:00] Jennifer: Ditto.

[00:13:01] Ramit: If each of you had a role in your relationship as it relates to money, what would the role be?

[00:13:06] Jennifer: Planner.

[00:13:07] Steve: Risk management.

[00:13:09] Ramit: And what does that mean?

[00:13:10] Steve: It means that you need to slow your role. Let's take a look at what we're doing here. Let's see what can go wrong, and then try to mitigate accordingly to make sure that we're making the right move, for our future.

[00:13:24] Ramit: I think that risk management is not really the role that you're playing. I think if I had to describe your roles, it might be dreamer and dream crusher. One person, they dream, hey, let's do this, let's do that. Let's take this trip. Let's buy these bins. And the other one goes-- look at my body language-- "Do we really need that? I don't know about that. Why don't we wait and find out." Dream crusher.

[00:13:48] Steve: Mm-hmm.

[00:13:49] Ramit: Now, there's a time and a place for saying, "Slow down. Hold on. Can you show me how you're thinking about this? You want to buy a $50,000 car? Can you show me what's our conscious spending plan? How much is gas going to cost? I totally agree. We need to manage risk.

[00:14:05] There's something entirely different about basically reflexively saying no in so many words. Saying, "You don't need that," is the same as saying no and not presenting an alternative. That's why you can't think of it, because I suspect you haven't actually ever presented an alternative. Jennifer?

[00:14:26] Jennifer: You are so right.

[Narration]

[00:14:28] Ramit: Notice what's happening here. Jennifer has been trying to get Steve to change, but her strategy has been to argue over the bins, the couch, the tiny things. And Steve's strategy is to say no, to minimize, to protect, but neither of them has stopped and zoomed out to realize the real cost here is not the money. It's the emotional weight they've been carrying and the fact that they are not connecting.

[00:14:55] When a couple gets stuck in this pattern, one of the things that happens is they start to believe the only way to feel safe is by controlling the other person's behavior. It becomes a ritual. It becomes a habit. Soon it becomes the only way they know how to relate to money.

[00:15:12] Jennifer thinks, if he would just say yes to the bins, this would all work out. I would feel seen. And Steve thinks, if I can just slow her down, get this painful conversation away, we'll be okay. But real safety doesn't really come from bins or budgets. It comes from trusting your partner, trust in each other, trust that when you disagree, you can talk about it without the entire relationship feeling like it's on the line.

[00:15:40] This is the quiet cost of financial fear. It shows up in your house, in your tone, even in deciding what things are okay to talk about, until one day you look around, you realize you've spent the last five years arguing about 10-dollar bins instead of moving forward and building the life you actually want.

[00:16:02] And after the break, you're going to hear why underneath this argument, there's something much heavier keeping them stuck.

[Interview]

[00:16:11] Ramit: Obviously, the two of you see money completely differently. I think that's pretty evident. Additionally, you have a structural divide. You're living together, but not married. And theoretically, Jennifer, you could just go and buy the bins. But what you are doing by asking these questions is you're trying to get him involved.

[00:16:31] Jennifer: Yes.

[00:16:32] Ramit: You're basically playing a type of game, which is, I want him to get involved. My approach to this game is I'm going to ask him questions. But the thing is, you already know he's not going to engage with the questions. So you're basically in a way setting him up to fail, and you're setting yourself up to be resentful.

[00:16:50] To live a  Rich Life, we have to be honest with ourselves and honest with the people around us. If something hasn't worked once, five times, 50 times, maybe my approach is bad and I should try to change my approach. Certainly today, I'll give you some different approaches. But also, maybe I'm just playing entirely the wrong game.

[00:17:06] Now Steve, for your part, you also play the game. Your game is, oh, here she comes. She wants this thing, but if she wants this and she's going to want that, and if she wants that-- and the way you treat her is like, she's a runaway train or something you have to contain. Because if you don't contain her, if you don't bring her back down to earth, then what's she going to do?

[00:17:30] Steve: She's going to run wild.

[00:17:31] Ramit: Yeah. Run wild. Now, has Jennifer ever given you any evidence of running wild financially speaking?

[00:17:39] Steve: No.

[00:17:40] Ramit: So it's quite interesting that you are looking 3, 4, 5 steps ahead to something that has never even happened. That's risk management. But it's actually become delusional. So the game that you're playing is you cross your arms and you go, "No, I'm here to crush dreams." And in fact, the funniest thing is that you've interpreted your dream crushing as a service. I'm preventing her from running wild.

[00:18:06] Steve: That is true, but I do want to specify that we have had conversations. In your perfect world, how would you like that to go? I want chefs. I want a personal trainer. I want all of these things. And so it's like, oh, well, those are really nice. That'd be a beautiful thing, but that is not something that we have right now.

[00:18:27] It's something that we could strive to, and I would be totally okay with that. But I never got the comfort in maybe just this is good enough. Maybe this is a really good place to be. I don't need a chandelier in every room, which she has had.

[00:18:44] Ramit: Okay. I think this is a really important conversation. Thank you for bringing that up. I'd love if the two of you could actually talk about this right now.

[00:18:50] Steve: So Jen, I certainly understand and know where you previously came from and what you're used to in life. I am fearful that I will not be able to live up to that or am not currently living up to that because of our financial situations, which are drastically different from your past and what we have today.

[00:19:11] I would like to have it to where that is understood and we can come together as a couple and be able to strategize our future that maybe one day we can get there. But I want to have comfort in knowing that where we are is okay. 

[00:19:26] Jennifer: Where we are is always okay because I'm with you. Yes, I had things in my past, but what I want is for us to have a great future, to have all the things we've wanted that we earn and deserve, and not put a limit on it.

[00:19:40] Steve: And that's what makes me nervous in the relationship, is that there is no limit to it. And I think dreaming big is great, but I think that the feeling of you possibly not being ever satisfied, where you continually want more and more to the degree in which I don't know if I would ever be able to keep up with it.

[00:20:05] Jennifer: What you hear of wanting more and more is correct, but it's not in that way. When I say I want more, I think that we've made it that we can have the next level because we can. Why stay stuck?

[00:20:20] Ramit: Okay. Pause, pause, pause, pause. I just heard two people explaining their position. You've had that conversation 1,000 times. I didn't hear any validation. Something, I'm personally working on is validating my partner. So, for example, when Steve, you said, I'd like to feel comfort, Jennifer, I didn't hear you say, "I want you to know that I love you and that we are good and that I hear your concerns about fear."

[00:20:43] Similarly, Steve, I didn't hear you saying, "I want you to know that I hear you want more. You see that we are in a privileged position, and you don't want that to go to waste. You want to take advantage of it." I didn't hear that. I just heard, let me explain my position and then now it's time for you to go. I want to take that storage bin conversation, which I suspect always happens with Jennifer bringing it up.

[00:21:09] We're going to flip the dynamic, and we're actually going to reverse roles. One is going to be the dreamer, the other's going to be the dream crusher or the driver and the passenger, which I think is a little bit more of a kind metaphor. The only catch is it has got to be something real. That means something that Steve actually wants.

[00:21:30] Steve: Jen, I want to modify my car. I want to make it go faster.

[00:21:35] Jennifer: That sounds really cool, but we don't got it.

[00:21:39] Steve: It would really make me feel happier in my everyday life. And I would really like to do that, Jen.

[00:21:46] Jennifer: And you will. You sure will. But maybe we should wait till next year. We have all these taxes and bills to pay. We got a debt bill. We got your dental work. We really need to wait at least one or two years before we pay that off and maybe then we'll see what life throws at us and maybe something else will come up.

[00:22:02] Steve: I'm heartbroken.

[00:22:05] Ramit: First of all, Jen, you got really good at that answer in 10 seconds. I don't know what just happened. You really took to that.

[00:22:13] Jennifer: All I did was start putting myself in his shoes of what he might say.

[00:22:18] Ramit: You both mentioned to me at the beginning of our call that you wanted to be aligned. In order to do that, you've actually got to be able to put yourself in the other person's shoes, sometimes in an uncomfortably hard way. It's like, why does my [Bleep] partner think this way?

[00:22:32] This is crazy. And yet, I'm going to give it 15 minutes. I'm truly going to try to understand where they're coming from. I'm going to reserve judgment. I'm going to put it aside. I'm just going to try to live the way they live for 15 minutes. And I think that was really cool to watch the two of you flip perspectives. Now, can I ask a question? Steve, you were very excited. I actually could tell that car thing was pretty real. So good job. And do you remember Jennifer's reaction? What did she say?

[00:22:58] Steve: We don't need it. There's all these other reasons why you shouldn't have it because of all these other reasons.

[00:23:04] Ramit: Right. And then what did you feel hearing that?

[00:23:06] Steve: Weighed down. I understood it. But I could see why somebody would be like, "Well, dang. I'm a little bit sad."

[00:23:16] Ramit: Yeah. It's interesting how you just depersonalized it though. I can tell you really do want to do something to your car. Is that accurate?

[00:23:23] Steve: Yes.

[00:23:23] Ramit: Okay. So she said no. And then you were like, "I can see how she's saying that. I can see how somebody might be deflated." But were you deflated hearing?

[00:23:34] Steve: No. Because I know that I have other things that would take more precedent over--

[00:23:41] Ramit: Like what?

[00:23:42] Steve: Student loans, getting out of debt. Modifying my car is a lovely thing, but there's other things that I would rather spend my money on that's probably more important.

[00:23:51] Ramit: Do you think in order to be good, you have to suffer? Everybody, look at Jennifer's face right now.

[00:23:56] Jennifer: You sound like him. Oh my God.

[00:23:58] Steve: I think that delayed gratification is a pain for a greater future.

[00:24:04] Ramit: You grow up religious?

[00:24:07] Steve: Not super hardcore religious, but yes, my mother was a Catholic.

[00:24:11] Ramit: Okay, okay. That's interesting. And Jennifer, do you believe in order to be good you have to suffer?

[00:24:18] Jennifer: No.

[00:24:19] Ramit: Okay. Have you all talked about this before? Seems like you have.

[00:24:22] Jennifer: Mm-hmm.

[00:24:23] Ramit: What's the conversation?

[00:24:24] Jennifer: Pretty much that. He'll explain his view about like pain and sacrifice. And I'm like, "You can just have fun." Positive reinforcement.

[00:24:35] Steve: I don't really understand it. There has to be some sacrifice for something bigger later on.

[00:24:42] Ramit: Right. Is it possible that both of you are right, that sacrifice is important and that you can sacrifice and it might be a little uncomfortable or even painful? It might feel good over time. Is it possible that all those things are true?

[00:24:58] Jennifer: Yeah.

[00:24:58] Ramit: You guys ever play a sport even recreationally? [Bleep] sucks when you start, right? Your ankles hurt and you're not good. That's painful. However, over time, maybe feel a sense of accomplishment, feel good. Any connection to money?

[00:25:13] Steve: Yes. I would definitely say so.

[00:25:16] Ramit: Okay. Steve, have you ever felt good about money?

[00:25:20] Steve: Yes. I hit a milestone goal of what I always wanted to at least have in the bank. I hit that, and I felt really good.

[00:25:26] Ramit: Oh, hey, what was the number?

[00:25:29] Steve: 100,000.

[00:25:30] Ramit: Oh, [Bleep]. All right. Hold on. Round of applause. Good job. When did you set that number? That's cool.

[00:25:36] Steve: Probably once I really got into a really good career. And I was like, what would that number look like for me?

[00:25:43] Ramit: Did you tell yourself, "What number will make me happy?" And then the number was 100,000?

[00:25:49] Steve: Yes.

[00:25:49] Ramit: Okay. Love it. And you accomplished it. Well done. Are you happy with money?

[00:25:55] Steve: No

[00:25:57] Ramit: Oh. How can that be? Don't we all set goals and then suddenly we're supposed to feel better about money when we have more in the bank account? Isn't that how it works?

[00:26:10] Steve: It's one milestone.

[00:26:11] Ramit: Oh. When do you get to feel good about money, Steve?

[00:26:16] Steve: I don't think it's a number. It's when you look back and you say, "I accomplished all of this. I'm content, and I'm not scared for the future anymore."

[00:26:27] Ramit: Feeling good is a lack of fear? Is that your take?

[00:26:30] Steve: Yes.

[00:26:30] Ramit: Okay, okay. What is feeling good about money for you, Jennifer?

[00:26:38] Jennifer: Not having to worry. Being able to say, for example, "I'm going to treat us to a dinner." Doesn't cause any big issues.

[00:26:49] Ramit: I feel I understand both of you a little bit better with money, but I don't think I fully understand where your attitudes on money come from. Obviously, there's something deeper. I want to hear more about how you grew up.

[00:27:01] Steve: When I was seven, my mother passed away, and so I was raised by a single father. He did pass away when I was 14, and then from that point on, we didn't have a mother and father anymore, me and my sister. So at that time, we were involved with the church. The pastor of that church was very involved in our life at the time and was working through the details of my father passing and us not having any parents anymore. But there was a lady at that church who said, "Hey, we'll take guardianship over you and your sister until you become of age."

[00:27:37] Jennifer: Tell him about the lady and the guy.

[00:27:39] Ramit: Yes. If there's more, I want to hear it, but I'm sorry about your mom and your dad, and especially as a 14-year-old. I can't even imagine. That's got to have been so difficult.

[00:27:48] Steve: Yeah. The lady that I spoke about who was taking care of us and took guardianship over my sister and I, was living at the house. They were very religious. My sister found out she was going through some receipts. There was a big old bag of them, and she was putting two and two together.

[00:28:10] And we confronted the lady like, "What's up with all these receipts?" "We're spending it on this and that." I'm like, "How is that even happening?" He's like, "Well, through your parents' death benefits."

[00:28:22] Ramit: They were taking the death benefit money, and what were they doing with it?

[00:28:27] Steve: They were spending it on their church.

[00:28:29] Ramit: What the [Bleep]?

[00:28:31] Steve: So we, of course, were not happy with that. We were already going through a lot. This is probably six months after my dad passed away. And they basically were just like, "You know what? If you guys are going to be ungrateful, if you guys are going to be bad kids, we'll just give up our guardianship papers and you guys could go off to the state. And no wonder why your dad passed away because of how bad you guys are."

[00:28:57] Ramit: What the [Bleep]? They said this?

[00:28:59] Steve: Yes.

[00:28:59] Ramit: Who? The lady?

[00:29:01] Steve: Yes, they were both doing it.

[00:29:04] Ramit: Oh my God. Okay. Then what did you do? How do you respond to that?

[00:29:08] Steve: You're so young and all you want to do is just hang out with your friends and this is what's happening. Luckily, my sister was involved with a guy at the time. That guy's mother heard about what was happening and that the church people were going to revoke their guardianship papers, and she goes, "Uh-uh-uh. I'm going to take guardianship over Steve and his sister."

[00:29:32] So she ended up doing that. And it was actually a funny story because once that happened, the church lady didn't know. Even the pastor didn't know that this was happening on the back end. They just thought they were going to revoke their guardianship and who knows what would happen to us. All of our assets and everything, my dad's stuff would be sold off.

[00:29:52] And she came home to my dad's house where we were growing up, and she was like, "What'd you end up doing today?" And I was like, "Oh, well, I skated. I did this, did that. " And I said, "We got a new guardian, so we won't be needing you anymore."

[00:30:05] Ramit: Whoa.

[00:30:07] Steve: Yeah.

[00:30:07] Ramit: Wait. That's the ultimate mic drop I've ever heard in my life, ever. And you're like, what, 15 years old at this time? Holy [Bleep]. Okay. What did she say?

[00:30:18] Steve: She had her eyes wide open and then she did one of these and just walked out the door. And that was the end of--

[00:30:26] Ramit: [Bleep] you, lady Agatha, whatever. Do you ever see her again?

[00:30:30] Steve: No, I've never seen any of them ever again.

[00:30:33] Ramit: Oh my God.

[00:30:33] Steve: So moving forward after that, we had to sell the house, and we moved in with the other lady. And once I got to about 18, the person who took guardianship board wanted to move to Colorado. I was like, "I'm going to stay here." And so I was from that point on surfing on couches, living in cars, that kind of thing. I had to deal with that for a good amount of time. Maybe a year or two.

[00:31:01] Ramit: Wow. What a story. I've never heard a story like that.

[00:31:05] Steve: Yeah.

[00:31:06] Ramit: I talk to a lot of people, and I don't usually get speechless, but I can't imagine going through it as an adult now. And for you to have gone through it as a 14 and 15-year-old, to have your only remaining living parent pass away and then to have to move into a whole other family with a sister.

[00:31:22] Steve: Yeah.

[00:31:23] Ramit: There's so much. What do you take away from that?

[00:31:27] Steve: It's hard to look back at it. I think now that I'm a little bit older, I'm more comfortable with it. I was very angry at the time. I wouldn't wish it on anybody. It was extremely difficult. And I think in many ways, I am the way I am today because of certain ways I had to adopt because of the situations that I was put in. And I would say that I'm undoing some of those things because I no longer have to do those things anymore.

[00:31:56] Ramit: Steve, how do you think that your upbringing affects your views of money today?

[00:32:02] Steve: Well, I have a scarcity mindset when it comes to money because I've lived in a car. I've had only $5 to my name. I know what it's like to couch surf, and I don't ever want to go back to that feeling. It's vulnerable, and it made me very scared. It was the most scared times of my life.

[00:32:23] Ramit: You lived in your car for, you said, one to two years. By the way, I love how you're like so casual about it. Was it one year, two years? I don't know. Some amount. For me, if it was two days or four days, I would tell you the number of minutes. So what happened after you were living in your car?

[00:32:38] Steve: So after I was living in my car, I did live with my sister and her husband for a short stint. I was also enrolled in college at the time. So I did that. I was able to get a job, and it was my first real job out of college, and at that point I was no longer on couches. I got my first apartment by myself.

[00:33:06] So that was a really big thing for me. Well, nobody can kick me out. Nobody can say I can't be here. And I remember thinking that when I opened that door and I saw that blank space, it was like nobody's throwing me out of here.

[00:33:22] Ramit: That's amazing. Holy [Bleep].

[00:33:26] Steve: Yeah.

[00:33:27] Ramit: And you've had housing for the last 20 years since that job, right?

[00:33:30] Steve: Yes, yes.

[00:33:31] Ramit: [Bleep] amazing, dude. It's funny. The conversation about the bins takes on a whole new light now that I know where you came from. So I appreciate that. Nobody can kick me out. That's powerful. Nobody can take this away from me.

[00:33:47] Steve: Mm-hmm.

[00:33:48] Ramit: That means something to you in a way that it could never mean to me. That's powerful.

[Narration]

[00:33:54] Ramit: Hearing Steve's story, suddenly everything clicks. His fear around money didn't just appear out of nowhere. It was built brick by brick from a childhood where nothing really felt safe. Losing both parents, losing control over his home, even losing control over his own money. And this is why I always say, you can find clues in people's background. Looking at the spreadsheet doesn't really tell you the real story. In fact, you can look at his savings account and say, wow, he's disciplined. But if you look closer, what seems to be disciplined might be revealed as something much different. Maybe it's fear.

[00:34:33] Steve's history with how he was raised is affecting his relationship with money. It's affecting his personal relationship as well. Obviously, this conversation is not really about storage bins. What's happening here is that those survival skills that he learned many years ago, that he had to learn, they worked. They actually got him here. But now those very same survival skills are holding him back from moving to the next chapter of his life.

[00:35:01] This is one reason I always recommend therapy, because you cannot spreadsheet your way out of a childhood history like he had. You have to get to the root, and it takes a lot of hard work, work that needs a trained therapist, work that cannot be done in one conversation. Otherwise, you're playing whack-a-mole with symptoms.

[00:35:18] And after the break, you're going to see how this dynamic plays out between them, how they both retreat to their corners, and what it would actually take to build the life that they say they want.

[Interview]

[00:35:32] Ramit: Jennifer, do you remember the phrases that your family said about money as you were growing up?

[00:35:37] Jennifer: Bueno, bonito, barato which means, good quality, nice looking, not too expensive. Super Colombian. We grew up with everything we needed. Never had a need for anything. Anything, it was there. Now, they weren't rich by any means, but my mother could stretch a dollar.

[00:35:56] So a lot of times, if we went shopping, we sometimes didn't have it, but I wouldn't know that. But she would be like, "Okay, school shopping, we're going to go to this area." Probably the cheapest place in New York, but I don't know. I'm a kid. And I could get 10 shirts for the price of one there. And I thought I was the most luckiest girl in the world.

[00:36:15] Ramit: Would you say you were middle class, lower middle class, poor?

[00:36:19] Jennifer: I would say we were definitely lower class growing up as kids. Never poor because we always had shoes. We always had clothes. If there was a party, we always had a dress. That's very Colombian too.

[00:36:28] Ramit: How about as you got older, say 13 to 18? Anything happen in your family with money?

[00:36:34] Jennifer: They got more of it. They started to make it with real estate. So it started off with buying their first property when moved to Florida about 25 years ago. That property, they sold. They made a little bit. Then the next one and then-- we moved probably every year and a half, so moving doesn't even bother me. It always means something better to me, in my mind, to move. Anytime we moved, it was always a better house. And I bring that into who I am today. Every time I move, I don't want to go backwards. I'm doing better.

[00:37:01] Ramit: Yeah, I hear you on that. I feel that way about a lot of important things. If I'm at a certain level, if it's important to me, I don't want to go back down.

[00:37:09] Jennifer: Mm-hmm. Exactly.

[00:37:11] Ramit: Jennifer, did you go to college?

[00:37:12] Jennifer: Sure did.

[00:37:13] Ramit: Okay, cool. What'd you do after college?

[00:37:16] Jennifer: During college, I started my own business. By the time I graduated from college, I had my business and I was already in my chosen profession. And now I own and have my own company as well with my chosen profession.

[00:37:31] Ramit: Wow. Well done. That's a big accomplishment. How do you feel about that?

[00:37:35] Jennifer: I freaking love it. I'm always like, "How do I get to that next thing, that next level, the next success? I tell Steve, I'm like, "I'm a woman that I don't go, oh, I need a man, or I can't live on my own." No. He dies tomorrow, that this house is mine. Everything's paid off. I am fine. I'm good. I never have to depend on anyone financially for anything I need. I choose to be with my partner because I love him, not that I have to, like in old days.

[00:38:05] Ramit: And is there an end goal? What's the vision for you?

[00:38:09] Jennifer: For me, it's joy. I just like to feel like I'm taken care of, whether it's me or other people around me that love me. That I'm happy. I'm not in a box. I'm not in pain.

[00:38:22] Ramit: Do you feel joy with money?

[00:38:23] Jennifer: I do. I really like it. I like money. I sure do.

[00:38:28] Ramit: I am surprised.

[00:38:31] Jennifer: Really?

[00:38:31] Ramit: Yes. Because from your stories, I hear accomplishment. I hear being very driven, and I get that. That's how I was raised, be driven, win. I get all that. I don't hear joy. The only time I heard it was just now when you said, I love money.

[00:38:50] Jennifer: I love money.

[00:38:51] Ramit: What do you love about it?

[00:38:53] Jennifer: Oh, that you can make it happen and do the things you want to do. It just opens up opportunities.

[00:38:59] Ramit: Like what?

[00:39:00] Jennifer: For example, let's say I save enough for a thing. Now I can go on that trip, and I have all these memories until I'm old.

[00:39:06] Ramit: I love that too. Okay, so you're saying you love money and I asked you why and you said these experiences that can create memories. I hear that loud and clear. Why else?

[00:39:17] Jennifer: Because it's a form of freedom. It makes me feel good. It makes me feel like the potential is unlimited.

[00:39:25] Ramit: Yeah. Okay. That's really helpful for me to understand. I share a lot of the way that you grew up. I share a lot of the values I think you were taught. I think it must be difficult to love somebody who sees money so differently than you do.

[00:39:42] Jennifer: Yes.

[00:39:44] Ramit: We have one person, Jennifer, who's like, "I want more. I want more. I'm so happy when I move because every time I do, it's better." And then I have Steve over here who goes like, "I don't ever want anyone to take it away from me." Would you both agree that the way you see money is very different?

[00:40:03] Steve: For sure.

[00:40:04] Jennifer: We know. Yeah.

[00:40:06] Ramit: I'm going to ask you a question that my wife and I were asked by a therapist when we were having a pretty difficult time talking about our prenup. She sat us down and asked us, "How do you both see money?" What's the word that comes to mind for you?

[00:40:21] Steve: Security

[00:40:22] Ramit: Okay. Jennifer?

[00:40:23] Jennifer: Happy.

[00:40:24] Ramit: Happy. Okay. Quite different. So Jennifer's saying it's happiness. If I can paraphrase, it's possibility. It's freedom. It's travel. And Steve is saying it is security. Or to paraphrase, it means that nobody is going to take it away from me. I don't have to go back to the situation that I was in as a kid. Totally different perspectives on money. Do you think there's a way to bring those two perspectives, happiness and security, together in a shared vision for your  Rich Life?

[00:41:01] Jennifer: Of course.

[00:41:03] Steve: Yeah, absolutely.

[00:41:04] Ramit: Okay. Let's skip the work and just get to the end. Let's say you all go through a series of conversations, you develop a healthier relationship with each other, with money, what do you get?

[00:41:16] Steve: We can meet our future needs, and we don't have to worry about are we going to be able to eat tomorrow. If we do this, are we going to be on the street?

[00:41:26] Ramit: Steve, can I ask a tough question?

[00:41:28] Steve: Sure.

[00:41:29] Ramit: I'm looking at your CSP right now. Y'all have a pretty good amount of money. You don't really ever have to worry about not eating again. Did you know that?

[00:41:37] Steve: I didn't know that, no. I didn't know that.

[00:41:40] Ramit: I think that candidly your answer is almost the answer I might expect from 18-year-old Steve.

[00:41:47] Steve: Mm-hmm.

[00:41:48] Ramit: It's going to take a lot of work for you to get to Steve of today. Right now, you're still giving me the answer I asked for as 18-year-old Steve who has a lot of things that happened to him, not of his own fault. Do me a favor and try to answer that question again. What would a healthy relationship with money look like for the two of you?

[00:42:09] Steve: That would look like, I know we have money.

[00:42:13] Ramit: Knowledge. Great. You know your numbers. Okay. That's number one. Keep going.

[00:42:17] Steve: And because I know the numbers, I know where that's going to take us in the future. I have no doubts that we're good to go today to the future.

[00:42:29] Ramit: Love it. You know the projections for the future. You can carefully project five years from now, 25 years from now. I love that. Okay, good. So all that is knowledge. It's up here in your head. Any feelings? Can we move from the head down here? How do you feel that day?

[00:42:46] Steve: Relief and confidence and a little bit of a swagger to me. You know what I mean?

[00:42:51] Ramit: So you're feeling a little confident.

[00:42:55] Steve: Yes.

[00:42:56] Ramit: Like, I did this. We did this. We're good.

[00:42:59] Steve: Yes.

[00:42:59] Ramit: Okay. I love that. Jennifer, same question for you. What does it look like when the two of you have a healthy relationship with money?

[00:43:08] Jennifer: Relaxed. We know we have everything we need. We have our future in place. It's automated. It's good. We can enjoy a lot of experiences, a lot of memories, and chat away about all the things we've done and what we're going to do. Basically, we know that everything is set. Everything's automated. We don't have to worry again.

[00:43:30] Ramit: Both of you saying we don't have to worry, and I'm hearing some feelings about having a little swag, being confident, and also being relaxed. So I love this. Feels like nice energy to say what it would be like at the end. What do y'all think?

[00:43:49] Jennifer: Oh yeah.

[00:43:50] Steve: Absolutely.

[00:43:51] Ramit: All right. So now that we know where you want to go, can we take a look at the numbers?

[00:43:57] Steve: Yeah. Let's do it.

[Narration]

[00:43:58] Ramit: Honestly, this is really impressive. Most couples don't get to this point. It's easy to get caught in the chaos of fighting about money, fighting about feelings, each one trying to convince the other that they're right. But it's amazing to watch Jennifer and Steve zoom out and realize they both want the same things. They want to travel. They want to build a future. They want to stop fighting over the bins.

[00:44:22] Instead of working towards that, they realize they have spent years locked in this loop. Jennifer jabbing, trying to pull him forward. Steve digging in, trying to slow her down. Both convinced that if the other person changed, it would all be okay.

[00:44:38] And that's the thing that we see over and over on this podcast about money fights. They're almost never solely about money. They're about how we feel, how we see money, how we were raised, what we remember our mom or dad saying around the dining room table when we were six years old. And that is why I spend so much time, not just looking at numbers, which are important, but also asking about how you grew up, what you feel, what do you know about money. And once you're able to name what you are really chasing, safety, happiness, freedom, then you can actually sit down and say, "What's it going to take to get there and how do I use my money to get there even faster and better?"

[00:45:24] And when we run the numbers, the answer might surprise them. And that's exactly what we're about to do.

[Interview]

[00:45:32] Ramit: What was it like putting together your conscious spending plan?

[00:45:35] Jennifer: For me, it was cool because I've been wanting to do something like that for a while. It was difficult also because I had to be more of a passenger and check in a lot more than if it were myself.

[00:45:47] Ramit: Mm-hmm. What about for you, Steve?

[00:45:51] Steve: I thought it was really good because I actually could see the numbers and it gave a sense of comfort for the future, which to me previously was a little bit foggy, so to speak.

[00:46:04] Ramit: Okay. Let's take a look at the numbers. Here we go. Jennifer, can you read off the word in bold and then the number in full next to it for this entire box?

[00:46:15] Jennifer: Assets, 346,000. Investments, $116,372. Savings, $193,464. Debt, $319,890. Total net worth, $335,946.

[00:46:39] Ramit: All right. All right. What do you think about those numbers?

[00:46:42] Jennifer: Good.

[00:46:43] Ramit: Okay. Steve, what do you say?

[00:46:45] Steve: They look good to me.

[00:46:47] Ramit: Okay, great. I like the agreement. Okay, fantastic. Let's go on to income. Steve, what is your combined gross monthly income?

[00:46:57] Steve: It's 13,821.

[00:47:00] Ramit: That means that the two of you combined make $165,000 per year. Did you know that?

[00:47:06] Jennifer: No.

[00:47:07] Steve: I did not know that. No.

[00:47:09] Ramit: So what does it tell you that you make $165,000 together?

[00:47:13] Steve: I would say since these are numbers today, that we're in a really good place.

[00:47:17] Ramit: Okay. That's great. You guys had the numbers, right? They were somewhere in your paychecks and stuff like that, but you didn't put it together. Why?

[00:47:27] Steve: I guess people just are in their own bubbles sometimes and they just don't really do it.

[00:47:31] Ramit: Yeah, I think that's true. I think that a lot of us also look at money in a very small way. Our world becomes about storage bins, and it becomes the setting for all the dramas in a relationship. And we play small. But if we were to zoom up and look at the key numbers, we wouldn't even spend more than a second on the storage bins.

[00:47:54] But we have to choose what level of life we play at. There's a time and a place to play at that level. When you are living in your car, you got to know where every cent is, bottom line. But making $165,000 a year, it's really important to elevate and to look at the bigger picture, the key numbers, the ratios, the stuff we're going to look at today. 

[00:48:16] Let's continue on with the numbers here. I know you all don't combine your money, but since you've told me you want to be engaged and get married, and for the purposes of simplicity, we're going to just put them all together. Your fixed costs are at 43%. What does that tell you guys?

[00:48:32] Jennifer: We're great.

[00:48:34] Steve: It's pretty low, so that's pretty good.

[00:48:36] Ramit: Yeah. The recommended number I suggest is 50 to 60%. 43 is very low. Meaning, your fixed costs are under control. You're not spending too much on any key area, housing, cars, etc. If we just go and look at this, let's just take a quick look just to show people. Your rent or mortgage is $1,768. That's extraordinarily low relative to your income. Debt payments are at 800. That's a little high, but, okay. What is that debt, by the way?

[00:49:06] Steve: That's going to be student loan debt.

[00:49:08] Ramit: Okay. How long will it take you to pay that debt off? It could be paid off in as short as what?

[00:49:13] Steve: Five years.

[00:49:14] Ramit: Five years to 10 years, something like that. Fine.

[00:49:17] Steve: Correct.

[00:49:18] Ramit: All right. Let's keep looking down the list. Subscriptions are $26 a month. Dog maintenance is $400 a month. Simply from looking at the numbers, you can easily afford it. So, fantastic. All right. Let's look at your investments. Investments are at 8%. Are you doing some 401(k)s as well?

[00:49:35] Jennifer: He is.

[00:49:36] Ramit: All right. You've got some 401(k) money. Cool. You're investing collectively about 800 bucks a month. Fine. Your savings are very surprising to me. Steve is smiling because he knows what I suspect coming. You all are putting 37% of take-home pay in savings. That's almost $4,000 a month. Who's putting $2,500 a month towards an emergency fund?

[00:50:06] Steve: I like to see that thing grow. So if I could put it to it, I put it to it. It is a safety thing.

[00:50:14] Ramit: I understand that, and I understand now where you came from, but if you're going to be really into safety, why don't you at least invest it? Why are you putting it into savings account?

[00:50:23] Steve: Valid question. And I just didn't have the knowledge. I didn't know how to do that.

[00:50:29] Ramit: Hold on. If only there were a book written somewhere that had been around since 2009 and then updated in 2019, second edition. Anybody know of a book like that?

[00:50:41] Steve: I did not know back then. I certainly do know now.

[00:50:45] Ramit: What is interesting is that these feelings of scarcity, these feelings of anxiety around money, they come out in the most peculiar places. Here we are in whatever row of the conscious spending plan, and immediately I'm like, "What's going on here?"

[00:51:04] Steve: Mm-hmm.

[00:51:04] Ramit: Because this is not typical. Somebody making your income would not be saving $2,500 per month. It doesn't make sense. And so I go, "Okay, what's going on?" We know your history. That starts to add up. I understand it, but I think there are probably healthier approaches to money that you could be taking.

[00:51:27] Steve: Fair.

[00:51:28] Ramit: All right. I do want to point out that, Jennifer, you are saving 25% of take-home pay and you're investing 13%. That's also a bit peculiar. What's up with that?

[00:51:39] Jennifer: Yeah. So basically, it fluctuates. My CSP is based on my lowest figures per month because my business goes with the time.

[00:51:48] Ramit: It's a very common scenario where we have people working a gig or working as an entrepreneur and their income is variable. And of course the solution is to build a buffer. So let's say that your fixed cost to keep the lights running for you is about 2,000 a month. So you might aim to have six months of that $12,000 in a savings account. Do you have $12,000 somewhere?

[00:52:11] Jennifer: I have much more in my savings account. Step two of this is also, I need to be better about where to put the extra.

[00:52:19] Ramit: We can fix that.

[00:52:21] Jennifer: I know.

[00:52:21] Ramit: I think you both need to be better about that, don't you think? You all have all this money sitting in savings. I'm like, "That's a easy fix."

[00:52:27] Jennifer: I know.

[00:52:27] Ramit: Also, you're losing a lot of money by not investing in it.

[00:52:32] Jennifer: I know.

[00:52:33] Ramit: When I have extra money, most of that money is getting invested. I'm just putting it away. I don't even have to think about it. I already made a decision years ago. I have a rule. This percentage goes here. It happens this often. I'm not thinking about it anymore. We're going to do the same thing for you. Okay?

[00:52:48] Jennifer: Yes.

[00:52:49] Ramit: All right. Your guilt free spending says 11%. Is that true?

[00:52:53] Jennifer: Yeah.

[00:52:54] Ramit: Are you happy with the amount you spend on guilt-free spending?

[00:52:58] Jennifer: No.

[00:52:59] Ramit: Oh. Okay, you're not. And then Steve, I already know the answer. You're like, "Yeah, we don't need it." Okay. So this is actually really helpful, seeing these numbers. This is the science part of money. The art part is, where did you come from? Where are you today, and where do you want to go tomorrow? And we put it all together in this beautiful tapestry. You mentioned you're creatives.

[00:53:23] So you know that whether you are a watercolor artist or you're a production person designing songs, there's no one answer. We can do the same with you. So let's try to do it. What I heard is you both feel pretty good about your fixed costs. I haven't heard any complaints about that. I do notice that one person, which is Steve, appears to make more. However, we know that Jennifer, her income is variable. Would you say it probably evens out roughly in the end at the end of a year.

[00:53:57] Steve: Mm-hmm.

[00:53:58] Ramit: As long as your incomes are roughly half, fine. If one of you made three times what the other made, I would probably do some proportionality.

[00:54:07] Steve: That's actually a really good [Inaudible] and I do believe that we're about the same overall.

[00:54:12] Ramit: Okay. Then keep it 50-50. If one person, for example, even makes 55 and the other makes 45, it's honestly simpler just to keep it 50-50. But if you start to get these wide divergences, then you do proportionality when you're not married. When you're married, it's a different story.

[00:54:27] Steve: Mm-hmm.

[00:54:28] Ramit: Fine. So what I heard so far is your fixed costs are fine. We don't even need to worry about that. Your investments look a bit low.

[00:54:37] Jennifer: Mm-hmm.

[00:54:38] Ramit: Especially because you're 37 and 41 years old. Now you have $116,000 in investments, but I know you all haven't calculated how much that's going to turn into, correct?

[00:54:49] Jennifer: Not together.

[00:54:50] Ramit: Let's see. You got 116,000. We're going to use my new calculator. Years you plan to invest?

[00:54:57] Jennifer: Let's say 23 more years.

[00:54:59] Ramit: Great. Interest rate, 7%. That accounts for inflation. How much are you going to add per year to your investments?

[00:55:06] Jennifer: I max out my Roth at 7k.

[00:55:09] Ramit: So you're doing 7,000, and Steve, how much are you doing per month?

[00:55:13] Steve: I don't do anything.

[00:55:14] Ramit: So you're going to have about $925,000. You know what that means to you? How much does that actually get you?

[00:55:21] Jennifer: Nothing. We're going to be poor in the future.

[00:55:23] Ramit: You're going to have $37,000 a year safe withdrawal. Very loose.

[00:55:27] Jennifer: Horrible.

[00:55:27] Ramit: Steve, what do you say?

[00:55:29] Steve: I don't think it's enough.

[00:55:30] Ramit: All right. So can we play a couple of scenarios right now? Let's do this. So you all have quite a bit of money going into savings and different places, right? Steve, how much did we say you're putting into savings every month?

[00:55:45] Steve: I'm shy of 3,000. Yeah.

[00:55:47] Ramit: All right. Let's just say 3,000 for easy math because--

[00:55:49] Steve: Okay. Sure.

[00:55:50] Ramit: Let's just say, Steve, that instead of that money going into savings, you just took it and invested it. Instead of you both investing $7,000 a year, you would be investing $43,000 a year. Steve, what does that number look like right there?

[00:56:05] Steve: It looks almost 3 mil now.

[00:56:06] Ramit: Yeah, it's $2.8 million. Now, let tell you the difference of what that does. You would have about $114,000 per year.

[00:56:18] Jennifer: And that's without my putting extra.

[00:56:21] Ramit: Yeah, that's correct. Should we do yours?

[00:56:23] Jennifer: Yeah. Add it in.

[00:56:25] Ramit: Tell me how much.

[00:56:26] Jennifer: Add in another thousand per month.

[00:56:28] Ramit: All right. Geez. Let's look. That's a lot. 55,000. Watch what happens. What's that number right there?

[00:56:36] Jennifer: 3.4 mil.

[00:56:37] Ramit: 3.4 million you now have at retirement. And that would be almost $140,000. Guys, with a couple of small changes, which actually will not affect your lifestyle one bit, not one bit, you just went to $140,000 safe withdrawal rate. And if you wanted to, you could get that number way higher. Not saying you have to, but I'm just saying, that's very impressive. How do you all feel right now?

[00:57:03] Jennifer: Way calmer.

[00:57:05] Steve: I feel very secure.

[00:57:07] Ramit: That's cool. I love that. And to me, what's meaningful about this is that you could only do this together. One of you could not make this happen. It's got to be both. And also, I love that it's a shared piece of art. There's so many different ways of doing this, but it's yours. That's what I love about a shared  Rich Life. There's another thing that I want to bring up. Doesn't one of you have a bunch of money in savings? Who has a lot of money in savings?

[00:57:31] Jennifer: Both of us, but he has the most.

[00:57:34] Steve: I probably have the most, like 120,000.

[00:57:38] Ramit: I don't mind having a big old savings account. I personally like it myself. I do want to show you what it is costing you. I'm going to show you numerically and then I'm going to show you emotionally. Right now we're looking at the last calculation we did, which is about $3.5 million.

[00:57:56] But let's say we take $50,000, and instead of letting it sit in savings, where it's not earning very much, we just put it in investments. All right. The number changes from 3.5 to $3.7 million. So that money basically went from 50k, it turned into over 200k with one click of a button.

[00:58:21] Now, there's a lot in that. What it means is you'd have to know your numbers. You'd have to be comfortable with the fact that that money's invested. You'd have to keep it invested. We would assume that 7% is the return you get over 23 years. But it's powerful. And I want to show you guys something. I'm just going to move it one year. Just one extra year. Watch what just happened.

[00:58:45] Jennifer: Oh wow.

[00:58:46] Steve: Four mil.

[00:58:47] Ramit: It went from 3.7 to 4 million in one year. You want to do one more year? Watch this. What's that number?

[00:58:55] Jennifer: 4.3 mil.

[00:58:57] Ramit: 4.38 million. So you can see at this point it's growing extremely fast. It's basically a snowball. You can't stop it. You're making, what, 300,000 plus per year simply from investments. I'm going to do just for kicks, just for fun. Let's go to 27 years. 27, you're at 5.1, and at this point every year it's increasing almost $400,000 a year. It is actually accelerating. Steve, what do you take away from that?

[00:59:24] Steve: That's definitely safe right there. That's safety.

[00:59:29] Ramit: Yeah, I like that. Jennifer, what are you noticing?

[00:59:32] Jennifer: I feel two things. I think it's awesome, but it's more than what we'll need. I'd rather retire earlier and us enjoy life.

[00:59:39] Ramit: Very nice. Both of you can be right. Of course, having $5 million is safe. Guys, I think you can feel safer a lot sooner than 27 years from now. I think that part involves us talking right now. I think it definitely involves therapy for the two of you, and I think it involves some individual work that you each do.

[01:00:02] Steve, you don't need to suffer when it comes to money. You actually don't get any points for life being harder. Life's been hard enough. What I would love to see from you, Steve, is developing the skills of enjoying what you've achieved. If you enjoy it, it's not going to make you softer. Trust me, it's not.

[01:00:23] And I know, because Indian culture is like, work hard, grind. But I've learned that if I'm running a marathon, I got to find a way to enjoy it, even though sometimes it might get hard. And guess what? You have a partner who wants to enjoy it.

[01:00:37] Steve: Yeah.

[01:00:37] Ramit: How does that strike you?

[01:00:39] Steve: It's powerful and it's true, and it's humbling in that way, and it's also exciting.

[01:00:46] Ramit: Yeah. How do we adjust your numbers so that you can breathe a little bit?

[01:00:53] Steve: Our investments are just so low. I'm not making anything but having money just sitting there. And I think in order for me to breathe, I would have to have that working in the backend for me.

[01:01:05] Ramit: What would you do? Tell me specifically.

[01:01:07] Steve: I would probably do 40,000 ,and I would put it into a Roth IRA.

[01:01:13] Ramit: Great. I'm with you on that. Okay, cool. So that's a one-time thing. You would put it in there. I love it. What about every month?

[01:01:20] Steve: I would at least put 15 to 1,700 into that investment.

[01:01:26] Ramit: Amazing.

[01:01:27] Steve: Yeah.

[01:01:27] Ramit: I love that. So out of the 2,500, you would take 1,700 and put it into investments every month.

[01:01:33] Steve: Yes.

[01:01:34] Ramit: Powerful. And I love what you're saying, by the way. You're going, "Hey, I still want to have a little bit going into my savings. It makes me feel good.

[01:01:41] Steve: Mm-hmm.

[01:01:42] Ramit: Amazing. Do it. But also, I'm going to invest because I see how much that can turn into.

[01:01:49] Steve: Yes.

[01:01:49] Ramit: I love that. Okay, so all that was great. What about living for today as well? Steve looks completely lost. He's like, "What the [Bleep]?" This money down here indicates that you spend $377 a month on guilt-free spending.

[01:02:03] Steve: Mm-hmm.

[01:02:04] Ramit: 6%. Now, typically I recommend 20 to 35%. I'm not telling you you have to spend 20 to 35%. I'm saying that there's an issue here, which is, you know you don't spend on things because you don't even know what you like to spend money on. You were stumped earlier.

[01:02:22] Your partner is saying, "Hey, I want us to spend more. I want to start living life. I want to do these things. I don't want to be obsessed over the price of bins." And you have more than enough money that's being invested and saved, so what do you think you might do about this number down here, $377?

[01:02:40] Steve: I could probably increase it up into-- maybe triple that.

[01:02:43] Ramit: You could definitely triple it if you wanted to. What would you do with the money?

[01:02:47] Steve: I would just like to have memories with Jen. I just want to spend time with her.

[01:02:53] Ramit: Jen, how do you feel hearing this?

[01:02:55] Jennifer: That's so sweet. I'm like a mush right now. But I want him to be comfortable. I always tell him, "You deserve so much." And he has so much trouble spending at all. He can put whatever number and increase it and he'll still be like, "No, no, I'm not going to spend it."

[01:03:14] Ramit: Steve, what will happen if you invest and save and you end up with millions of dollars?

[01:03:20] Steve: I will have that money. I'll probably buy some really cool things.

[01:03:25] Ramit: Wrong. What was the last cool thing you bought, Steve.

[01:03:28] Steve: A Honda Civic Type R.

[01:03:30] Ramit: Oh. What the [Bleep]? First of all, great car. What's a type R?

[01:03:34] Steve: It's the more sporty version of the Honda Civic.

[01:03:37] Ramit: All right. That's actually a really good answer. So I like that. That's the thing that you love. Great. On the other hand, I would say, the fact that your partner's asking you if she can get bins, that's a problem already. That conversation shouldn't even be happening. But the fact that your response to that is, "We don't need it." when you could be on track to have $5 million, do you see the disparity in that?

[01:03:59] Steve: Yeah.

[01:04:00] Ramit: I talk to a lot of people who are focused on saving and cutting back, and they don't project forward, and they tell themselves like, "Oh, yeah. When I get that much, I'll spend it." No, they don't. They don't have the skills of spending money. Do you see that spending money meaningfully is a skill?

[01:04:14] Steve: Yeah.

[01:04:16] Ramit: When we first started talking about this, one of the things that, Jennifer, you said, "I want him to be a partner in this."

[01:04:23] Jennifer: Mm-hmm.

[01:04:23] Ramit: And I agree. I always believe two people, they have to be partnered. I can tell that in lots of parts of life you're very connected. But in money, for a variety of reasons, you've each taken on a role, and it's almost like you're wearing a mask. And the thing I love about a mask is we can take off the mask and we can put on a different one or we can leave it mask free.

[01:04:47] And so I love the idea that you start to know your numbers. I love the idea that you can express, you want a partner, Jennifer, but rather than asking questions that you know you're going to get a negative reaction to, you can actually redefine what a partner means.

[01:05:05] Maybe the case is that the two of you sit down and you go, "Hey, it's really important to us to create memories. Let's put some money behind that." And then part of the time he's going to decide. Part of the time she's going to decide. That's up to you. How does that sound?

[01:05:23] Steve: Good. I like it.

[01:05:24] Jennifer: Mm-hmm.

[01:05:25] Ramit: Jennifer, I have a question about some of the differences in the way you approach money. How much of this do you think is due to cultural differences?

[01:05:36] Jennifer: I would say a lot of it, big time. But I would also say that out of my entire circle in all of my family, I have the biggest drive. So I inherently have this unique strength.

[01:05:48] Steve: It's true. Yeah.

[01:05:49] Ramit: Okay. That's good to know. And then that can make it difficult if you're partnered with somebody who's not the same as you.

[01:05:58] Jennifer: Yeah, yeah.

[01:06:00] Ramit: Right?

[01:06:00] Jennifer: Mm-hmm.

[01:06:01] Ramit: And in fact, if we flip the genders right now and we were to take an example of a couple where he had a lot of drive and had a high earning job or was constantly saving and investing and maybe she was content and had grown up differently and was not as interested in achieving more, how would you two be reacting to that situation?

[01:06:27] Jennifer: That's okay as long as they're both happy and healthy.

[01:06:30] Ramit: Steve, what do you think about that scenario?

[01:06:32] Steve: I would think that it would be perfectly fine.

[01:06:34] Ramit: Isn't this scenario your relationship just reversed?

[01:06:37] Steve: Yeah.

[01:06:38] Jennifer: Yeah.

[01:06:39] Ramit: Are you surprised?

[01:06:40] Jennifer: I am. I am.

[01:06:42] Ramit: Yeah. I think that a lot of people would not look twice if the genders were reversed. So the reason I bring this up is it's important to know all the different parts that are affecting this situation. We probably have some cultural things. Doesn't mean anybody's right or wrong. It's just, hey, I see things differently because of what my grandparents said in Columbia. Who knows?

[01:07:08] Then we might have some gender issues. Again, issues don't mean they're bad. They are simply things that we probably want to understand if we want to move ahead. And that's where some of the work that I would encourage you to do is.

[01:07:22] I have two things that I want to challenge you to do. First off, is to see a couples therapist. I think it would be immensely useful. And if you don't like them, you can find somebody else. It's important because if the two of you are aligned, you're going to be rowing so much faster than you currently are.

[01:07:41] Steve: Yeah.

[01:07:43] Ramit: The second thing I want to suggest to you is for you to set up a joint amount of money that is for your household. It could be a couple hundred bucks a month, and that is money that is going to be used for the household. So if you truly needed bins, that's up to you. Each of you could put a hundred dollars a month from your savings account, and there you go. That's your joint money.

[01:08:07] Put it in a fixed account category. It's household expenses, done. And then the big stuff we can be a little bit more thoughtful about. What both of you have accomplished is very impressive. Steve, what you've accomplished from the upbringing that you had blows me away. It's way more impressive than anything I have done. And my wish for you, Steve, would be for you to get the skills to appreciate it. And nobody can do that except for you.

[01:08:36] Steve: Mm-hmm.

[01:08:37] Ramit: My wish for both of you would be that you can connect over money in a healthy way. I actually think you're so close. You both want the same thing. You want to enjoy life. You want create memories. You want to be safe. You can actually achieve all those things.

[01:08:55] But I got to tell you, I don't think safety comes from the spreadsheet. I think it comes from here. And I think it takes work to be able to feel safe. It also takes work for the two of you to create that shared vision. So I want that for you. I will very much look forward to seeing what changes you both make.

[Narration]

[01:09:14] Ramit: When I hear stories like Steve's, I'm reminded how much people carry without anyone ever seeing it. The fact that he survived what he did, losing his parents, losing his home, scraping by, and built a stable life is incredible. But survival skills for one part of life don't always translate to other parts of life. Sometimes they don't serve you anymore.

[01:09:42] The very things that kept Steve afloat, caution, control, vigilance, are now the very same things that seem to be keeping him stuck because survival is not the same as living. And for Jennifer, she's been moving fast her whole life, building, climbing, believing anything's possible if you just work hard enough. So when she talks to Steve and feels like he's slowing her down, it's no wonder she feels frustrated.

[01:10:11] But the good news is you don't have to see money the exact same way to live a  Rich Life together. You do have to agree on some big things. You probably have to agree on where you're both going. And now it's time to find out if Jennifer and Steve are ready to do exactly that. Not as two individuals stuck in the past, but as two partners building something new.

[01:10:34] Jennifer: Hi. So ever since our last conversation, the thing that stuck with me the most was being really mindful, being better at put myself into my partner's shoes. So that's something that I hope you've been feeling a lot more. I'm making it an effort that instead of just being frustrated by these things that I might find little or frustrating, I'll say, "Okay. I'm Steve. Why do I feel this way? Why do I think he might be feeling this way?" Where I might come from. I ask him, I'm like, "Am I off base? Is this right?" And he'll answer me. And so that's been very helpful.

[01:11:08] Steve: Yeah, I would probably say for me, I've just been more mindful of not being a dream crusher and micromanaging or trying to get involved with all the little items that we may need, like bins. By the way, we did get the bins. I'm not helping by doing that, and I'm a lot more mindful of that since we spoke with Ramit.

[01:11:30] Jennifer: What's really cool is that we are checking in now. We're conversing about things more, and we're being, I think, a little bit more understanding when we do have those conversations. It's beginning to happen.

[01:11:42] Steve: We definitely opened up our first joint account. We talk to each other back and forth to make sure that we're both aware of any purchases that are going on. And we started our monthly meeting where we go over finances and some of our  Rich Life goals.

[01:12:00] Jennifer: And it was fun. Okay, listen, he made a PowerPoint, and it had Italian Greyhounds all over it because we're obsessed. Our boys are Italian. It's the funniest thing I've ever seen in my life. Above and beyond. I can't even compete. It was so good. So thanks guys. Bye.